fayfreethinkers.com

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:17 am**

-The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

-In its original form it read:
 "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

-In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:
 "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

-In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:
 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Now more than ever is it important to openly show our loyalty to our country, sure things aren’t perfect within the Gov. However, this pledge does express some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.
With the words “under God” removed- would You like to see the original pledge back into public schools?

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:53 am**

TBryant wrote:Now more than ever is it important to openly show our loyalty to our country, sure things aren’t perfect within the Gov. However, this pledge does express some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.
With the words “under God” removed- would You like to see this pledge back into public schools?

I am a teacher in an Arkansas public school, where state law mandates daily recitation of the pledge. A person may wax poetic about patriotism, national pride, loyalty, expressing solidarity, etc., but the pledge is an empty gesture. Mandating daily recitation makes it a chore -- and a boring one, at that -- one that takes time away from my doing something that has an actual, measurably beneficial effect on the students.

No, it's not important for us to engage in a symbolic gesture so mundane that nobody cares about the content of that gesture. I reject your assertion that mandatory recitation of the pledge is important now.

The pledge expresses some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world? We live in a state where the pledge espouses liberty and justice as it simultaneously necessitates my personal espousal of a religious belief that I do not accept, in violation of my rights.

The next idiot who tries to tell me that I should feel obligated to show loyalty to a country that purports to protect my freedom to not be obligated to show loyalty to the country, should be smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan. I'll do right by my country by doing my best to improve it with meaningful actions, not with hollow words.

For the record, I refuse to participate in the pledge, as a special subsection of the same law protects my right to do so. Students ask me why I don't participate. Instead, they should be asking why they do, but they don't even realize that that's a valid question because they have it pounded into their heads that they're supposed to be "patriotic" and "loyal." If that's what the country is about, then the "liberty" mentioned in the pledge is hollow indeed.

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:29 am**

The only people who think the USA is the greatest country in the world (and of all times), are people who have never traveled outside of it. The way to make this country the best it can be is to drop useless gestures and do something of actual substance. If we work to make our nation something we can each be proud of, we wouldn't need to make empty pledges to it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:39 pm**

Savonarola wrote:
TBryant wrote:Now more than ever is it important to openly show our loyalty to our country, sure things aren’t perfect within the Gov. However, this pledge does express some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.
With the words “under God” removed- would You like to see this pledge back into public schools?
I am a teacher in an Arkansas public school, where state law mandates daily recitation of the pledge. A person may wax poetic about patriotism, national pride, loyalty, expressing solidarity, etc., but the pledge is an empty gesture. Mandating daily recitation makes it a chore -- and a boring one, at that -- one that takes time away from my doing something that has an actual, measurably beneficial effect on the students.

No, it's not important for us to engage in a symbolic gesture so mundane that nobody cares about the content of that gesture. I reject your assertion that mandatory recitation of the pledge is important now.

The pledge expresses some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world? We live in a state where the pledge espouses liberty and justice as it simultaneously necessitates my personal espousal of a religious belief that I do not accept, in violation of my rights.

The next idiot who tries to tell me that I should feel obligated to show loyalty to a country that purports to protect my freedom to not be obligated to show loyalty to the country, should be smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan. I'll do right by my country by doing my best to improve it with meaningful actions, not with hollow words.

For the record, I refuse to participate in the pledge, as a special subsection of the same law protects my right to do so. Students ask me why I don't participate. Instead, they should be asking why they do, but they don't even realize that that's a valid question because they have it pounded into their heads that they're supposed to be "patriotic" and "loyal." If that's what the country is about, then the "liberty" mentioned in the pledge is hollow indeed.

First, you believe its "dumb and a waste of time" say the pledge? No beneficial reason to pledge?
Secondly, I never mentioned mandatory anything....
Thirdly, I made the suggestion that we should remove the religious text.
Fourthly, YOUR LINE "The next idiot who tries to tell me that I should feel obligated to show loyalty to a country that purports to protect my freedom to not be obligated to show loyalty to the country, should be smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan."
Watch what you say... I'm not sure how you talk to other adults but that is not how its done.
Lastly, my original suggestion to remove the religious text, and see what intelligent people have to say about "Americans Pledging Allegiance to America."

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:52 pm**

Cherryj wrote:The only people who think the USA is the greatest country in the world (and of all times), are people who have never traveled outside of it. The way to make this country the best it can be is to drop useless gestures and do something of actual substance. If we work to make our nation something we can each be proud of, we wouldn't need to make empty pledges to it.

This what I said Now more than ever is it important to openly show our loyalty to our country, sure things aren’t perfect within the Gov. However, this pledge does express some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.
With the words “under God” removed- would You like to see this pledge back into public schools?

Who said USA is the greatest country in the world (and of all times)???? .......

That wasn't in my post, so why would you talk about it now??

....Oh after that you then say people that have never traveled outside of the states.

AN EMPTY PLEDGE...... REALY
When I was a young boy we still did the pledge every morning and I can still remember standing there as a young boy proud as could be of my country.

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:16 pm**

TBryant wrote:First, you believe its "dumb and a waste of time" say the pledge? No beneficial reason to pledge?

He explained why it is "dumb and a waste of time". As a supporter of the Pledge, it is up to you to explain its benefits.

Secondly, I never mentioned mandatory anything....

He didn't say you did.

Thirdly, I made the suggestion that we should remove the religious text.

That doesn't solve the problems he cites.

Fourthly, YOUR LINE "The next idiot who tries to tell me that I should feel obligated to show loyalty to a country that purports to protect my freedom to not be obligated to show loyalty to the country, should be smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan."
Watch what you say... I'm not sure how you talk to other adults but that is not how its done.

At least he didn't say "bitch-slapped", a recent and faddish idiom. "Smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan" has class borne of history, literature and long-standing cultural awareness.

Lastly, my original suggestion to remove the religious text, and see what intelligent people have to say about "Americans Pledging Allegiance to America."

Your suggestion also included the question, "...would You like to see this pledge back into public schools?" That indicates that you believe the Pledge of Allegiance has been removed from the schools, which might cause some of us to infer that you have a problem that doesn't exist, probably because you don't know what you are talking about. That makes some people a bit snappish. "Back into public schools", indeed.

Are you from around here? If so, you should remember the palaver (sans frying pan) arising from this fine young man's refusal to say the Pledge, as it was quite the cause célèbre. If not, perhaps you will develop an appreciation for snappish reactions to questions that need no asking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Phillips

When I was a young boy we still did the pledge every morning and I can still remember standing there as a young boy proud as could be of my country.

Would you not have been proud of your country if you hadn't said the Pledge? When I was in elementary school, we said the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer, and had a Bible reading. These daily activities helped to take our minds off the fact that the schools had just been desegregated-- almost as if that fact alone couldn't make us proud of our country.

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:25 pm**

David Franks wrote:
TBryant wrote:First, you believe its "dumb and a waste of time" say the pledge? No beneficial reason to pledge?
He explained why it is "dumb and a waste of time". As a supporter of the Pledge, it is up to you to explain its benefits.
Secondly, I never mentioned mandatory anything....
He didn't say you did.
Thirdly, I made the suggestion that we should remove the religious text.
That doesn't solve the problems he cites.
Fourthly, YOUR LINE "The next idiot who tries to tell me that I should feel obligated to show loyalty to a country that purports to protect my freedom to not be obligated to show loyalty to the country, should be smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan."
Watch what you say... I'm not sure how you talk to other adults but that is not how its done.
At least he didn't say "bitch-slapped", a recent and faddish idiom. "Smacked in the back of the head with a frying pan" has class borne of history, literature and long-standing cultural awareness.
Lastly, my original suggestion to remove the religious text, and see what intelligent people have to say about "Americans Pledging Allegiance to America."
Your suggestion also included the question, "...would You like to see this pledge back into public schools?" That indicates that you believe the Pledge of Allegiance has been removed from the schools, which might cause some of us to infer that you have a problem that doesn't exist, probably because you don't know what you are talking about. That makes some people a bit snappish. "Back into public schools", indeed.

Are you from around here? If so, you should remember the palaver (sans frying pan) arising from this fine young man's refusal to say the Pledge, as it was quite the cause célèbre. If not, perhaps you will develop an appreciation for snappish reactions to questions that need no asking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Phillips

I am no conservative.. IAM AN X AIRBORNE RANGER INFANTRY MAN SF.....

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:36 pm**

TBryant wrote:I am no conservative.. IAM AN X AIRBORNE RANGER INFANTRY MAN SF.....

I don't think anybody said that you are a conservative, even if you have latched onto a baseless conservative complaint. Conservative or not, I hope we will continue to have you in our midst.

Thank you for your service.

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:45 pm**

David Franks wrote:
TBryant wrote:I am no conservative.. IAM AN X AIRBORNE RANGER INFANTRY MAN SF.....

I don't think anybody said that you are a conservative, even if you have latched onto a baseless conservative complaint. Conservative or not, I hope we will continue to have you in our midst.

Thank you for your service.

Its just my first on and apparently only a few schools are still doing it... lol
How do you email on here?

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:35 pm**

Hello Tbrynant. I am against teacher led recitation of the pledge because it is unnecessary coercive state indoctrination that smacks of something the commies would do.

It's exceedingly unlikely that the "under God" bit will be taken out, so that's pretty much a moot point. Having it in there makes it a slam dunk that it is inappropriate, it endorses religion. I read an article about a marine who said he always proudly said the pledge but never could after the Under God insertion was put it. He wasn't going to lie.

When my son was in grade one or two (about 1996), his teacher called and said there was a problem regarding the pledge. He didn't want to say it because of the God part. This was news to me, I had never talked to him about it. I guess he had picked up my unbelief and figured it out on his own. So I went and had a talk with the teacher. She said it was fine if he didn't want to do it, and offered that he stand out in the hall when it's done. That brought up flashbacks of when I had to go out in the hall everyday during the Lord's Prayer because Jehovah's Witnesses don't recite prayers over and over (see Matt 6:9). So I suggested that perhaps he could just stay in the class and not say it. So that's what we did. A few weeks/months later I asked her how it was going. She said he was saying the pledge just like all of the other kids. That's how coercion works and that's why they do it. I am against state induced, state coerced, nationalism/tribalism. It's entirely unnecessary.

TBryant wrote:Now more than ever is it important to openly show our loyalty to our country,..."

Why is that? Being raised a JW in Canada, I didn't get indoctrinated with the nationalism meme, in fact it wasn't even allowed. Plus Canadians aren't nearly as hyper patriotic as Americans anyway. I really don't see what it accomplishes.

this pledge does express some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.

The first person to say "United States of America" was Thomas Paine, and he famously said: "The world is my country, to do good my religion." Nationalism is vastly over rated in my opinion. Countries are temporary political institutions. Maybe someday we won't need them. Or, (gasp), we'll have just one. People tend to fall into some kind of worship of their state, and it's usually not productive.

With the words “under God” removed- would You like to see this pledge back into public schools?

No, and it's very unlikely the "under God" part will be removed.

When I was a young boy we still did the pledge every morning and I can still remember standing there as a young boy proud as could be of my country.

Well, people are free to do that as they will, but we don't need the state coercing the children to do it.

D.
----------------
"The deeply ingrained belief - no, not from birth but from the educational system and from our culture in general - that the United States is an especially virtuous nation makes us especially vulnerable to government deception. It starts early, in the first grade, when we are compelled to "pledge allegiance" (before we even know what that means), forced to proclaim that we are a nation with "liberty and justice for all."

And then come the countless ceremonies, whether at the ballpark or elsewhere, where we are expected to stand and bow our heads during the singing of the "Star-Spangled Banner," announcing that we are "the land of the free and the home of the brave." There is also the unofficial national anthem "God Bless America," and you are looked on with suspicion if you ask why we would expect God to single out this one nation - just 5 percent of the world's population - for his or her blessing. If your starting point for evaluating the world around you is the firm belief that this nation is somehow endowed by Providence with unique qualities that make it morally superior to every other nation on Earth, then you are not likely to question the President when he says we are sending our troops here or there, or bombing this or that, in order to spread our values - democracy, liberty, and let's not forget free enterprise - to some God-forsaken (literally) place in the world. It becomes necessary then, if we are going to protect ourselves and our fellow citizens against policies that will be disastrous not only for other people but for Americans too, that we face some facts that disturb the idea of a uniquely virtuous nation.

These facts are embarrassing, but must be faced if we are to be honest. We must face our long history of ethnic cleansing, in which millions of Indians were driven off their land by means of massacres and forced evacuations. And our long history, still not behind us, of slavery, segregation, and racism. We must face our record of imperial conquest, in the Caribbean and in the Pacific, our shameful wars against small countries a tenth our size: Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq. And the lingering memory of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."
--"America's Blinders," Howard Zinn, The Progressive, April 2006.

Posted: **Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:51 am**

TBryant wrote:This what I said ...However, this pledge does express some of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.

And what reasons would that be? The pledge says we are one nation. So is every other nation. So that can't be one of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.

The pledge says we are under God, and you endorse getting rid of that. So that can't be one of the reasons America is one of the best countries in the world.

The pledge promises liberty and justice for all. We have a lot of both, but so do many other countries. In fact, a lot of countries are ahead of us in many liberties, and in justice too. We'll see soon whether the LGBT community can get some liberty and justice soon...

Posted: **Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:02 am**

TBryant wrote:First, you believe its "dumb and a waste of time" say the pledge? No beneficial reason to pledge?

Why did you put question marks here? Are you unable to read what I wrote? I mean, I could repeat myself, but it would make more sense for you to just read what I've already said.

TBryant wrote:Secondly, I never mentioned mandatory anything....

But I did, because state law does mandate that schools lead recitation of the pledge.

TBryant wrote:Thirdly, I made the suggestion that we should remove the religious text.

And I explained why it's still a ridiculous activity even without the religious text.

TBryant wrote:I'm not sure how you talk to other adults but that is not how its done.

I'm talking to you. Are you an adult? If so, then that's what I said, and I'm talking to an adult. Therefore, that's how it's done.

TBryant wrote:Lastly, my original suggestion to remove the religious text, and see what intelligent people have to say about "Americans Pledging Allegiance to America."

It's pretty sad that your final point references intelligent people -- as if I don't qualify -- in a "sentence" that isn't actually a complete sentence.
I've given you an intelligent American's view on pledging allegiance to America, and you got the added bonus of getting that feedback from somebody who experiences that pledge on a daily basis. I'm not sure what else you could ask for. You're just pissy that I don't agree with you. If you want me to agree with you, you'll have to make some sort of case for your being correct. Don't look now, but you haven't done that.

TBryant wrote:I am no conservative..

Did anyone here do as much as imply that you are?

TBryant wrote:AN EMPTY PLEDGE...... REALY

Yes, really. If you don't understand these words, I can help you locate resources to improve your reading comprehension.

TBryant wrote:When I was a young boy we still did the pledge every morning and I can still remember standing there as a young boy proud as could be of my country.

David Franks sort of beat me to this, but my response to this would be: Why were you as proud as could be? Because of a pledge? Does your saying the pledge confer some characteristic upon the country that it wouldn't have without your recitation of the pledge? If not, then the pledge isn't important. If, instead, you're proud of the country because it encourages recitation of a pledge, then we can provide several examples of similar pledges of loyalty to other organizations that will make a rational person realize that any non-respectable regime can concoct a pledge. If you cannot explain why you were so proud, then this proves my point to you in a personal way much more powerful than any of my anecdotes or reasoning ever could.

TBryant wrote:apparently only a few schools are still doing it...

Then those schools not doing it are in violation of state law. If you'd like, compile a list and send it to the attorney general. See how well that goes over. If we're lucky, someone will object, sue, and we'll have the case heard in federal court.

Posted: **Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:06 am**

TBryant wrote:How do you email on here?

We have the forums set up to keep email addresses secret. Registered users may send private messages to other registered users through the messages menu, or you can click here to go straight to a private message composition page.

--Savonarola, FFForums Mod@Large

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:30 am**

Why would you pledge to a piece of cloth?

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