fayfreethinkers.com

3/11/09

Grace, grace is sufficient for all men for all people. The way of the cross is level and straight for everyone and anyone can come to the cross. The choice is yours to accept the forgiveness and to cast your burdens down at the cross. Do you not know it is your choice to accept the cross or leave the cross behind.

People say we want proof! We want scientific proof! How do you prove an empty grave? There is no body. You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets. The proof is Jesus died and rose!

Many shall say, where is this proof the source outside the Bible? You shall find these discoveries written outside the Bible. You will know, but they will say this is a forgery, this is a hoax this is not proof. Believe me, if you want proof outside the written Word, why won’t believe? You don’t understand, God’s ways or thoughts.

Just as in the days of Noah, the days are increasing in wickedness at a faster pace than Noah could even tolerate. Noah had over 100 years to wait for the people to listen to the Word of God. In these days I tell you now wickedness is accelerating so quickly the days will be shortened because of God's mercy on the elect.

In the darkness of evil the light will be more and more obvious for the believers of God and the Light shall prevail, Amen.

Kentucky is facing a time of turmoil, a time of leadership crisis. Amidst this all there will be great discoveries found in the soil of Kentucky during the time of Abraham Lincoln’s day.

Do you not know about the sword that divides a mother against her daughter, a father against his son? Israel is preparing for an all out war against her enemies. Iran will be hit on the blindside. Even though they say Benjamin Netanyahu escaped by the hair on his head, he will survive the outcome of this war.

More leaders in the Muslim communities shall find Christ. As there are more Arabs already who know and follow Christ than Jews, they will teach the Jews about Messiah Yeshua more and more in the days ahead.

Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi, don't you know about the fires that shall come with the uncontrollable winds. And when the earthquake hits your state they shall be stunned by the largest earthquake that has ever hit Mississippi.

The atheists in this nation are like the brothers who believe, but in what exactly? They say, religion is to blame, but when you show them love at all costs they will begin to wonder, perhaps this is the first example of what Jesus truly wanted Christians to be.

Pensacola, Florida you must be ready for the great rains, rain, rain, and more rain, when you hear them speak of floods and storms, be prepared to do all you can to stay safe and if you must leave the area until it is safe to come back.

- Joshua

http://joshuaudell.webs.com/

Prophecy Last Pope Dark One

Detailed vision seen early in 2009 about the anti-pope video message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HJqDe6 ... annel_page

Joshua Udell wrote:3/11/09
The choice is yours to accept the forgiveness

DAR
Forgiveness for what? Did I do something wrong?

People say we want proof! We want scientific proof! How do you prove an empty grave?

DAR
You have an empty grave? Where? You don't have one and no one knows where such a grave is/was or may have been. Some scholars believe Jesus body was likely fed to dogs. Note:

Quote/paraphrase of certain imminent scholars regarding the resurrection:
'a poetic rendering of a devout wish but certainly not an authentic record... since the Crucifixion was conducted by Roman soldiers,... Jesus' body was most likely left on the Cross or tossed into a shallow grave to be eaten by scavenger dogs, crows or other wild beasts. As for Jesus' family and followers, depicted in the Bible as conducting a decent burial of the body according to Jewish law, "as far as I can see, they ran," Crossan says. "They lost their nerve, though not their faith." --TIME mag., 4/10/95, pg. 70, Robert W. Funk and Dominic Crossan.

There is no body. You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets. The proof is Jesus died and rose!

DAR
Lots of people don't have a grave. Most of them in fact. Saying someone died and rose doesn't provide any evidence that they actually did.

You will know, but they will say this is a forgery, this is a hoax this is not proof.

DAR
I don't think the Bible is a forgery or a hoax. I just think when it makes outrageous claims about talking animals and resurrected corpse's, it's wrong.

Just as in the days of Noah, the days are increasing in wickedness at a faster pace than Noah could even tolerate.

DAR
Christians have been saying this for nearly 2,000 years. Don't they ever get tired of being wrong? Noah was a drunk and didn't "tolerate" anything. As the (impossible and childish) story goes, he was following orders.

More leaders in the Muslim communities shall find Christ. As there are more Arabs already who know and follow Christ than Jews, they will teach the Jews about Messiah Yeshua more and more in the days ahead.

DAR
Christianity is actually in decline. Note:

****
"The meteoric rise of secular quasi-religions
Equally startling has been the meteoric growth of secularism in its religious forms. Two immense quasi-religious systems have emerged at the expense of the world religions: agnosticism (also termed secularism, materialism, non-religion, etc.) and atheism (also termed anti-religion or irreligion).... From a miniscule presence in 1900, a mere 0.2% of the globe, these systems have mushroomed to 20.8% of the globe by 1980. They are today increasing at the extraordinary rate of 8.5 million new converts each year, and are likely to reach one billion adherents by the year 1984. A large percentage of their members are the children, grandchildren or great-grandchildren of persons who in their lifetimes were practising Christians. No Christian strategist in 1900 had envisaged such a massive rate of defection from Christianity within its 19th-century heartlands."
[...]
In 1900, Christians numbered 34.4% of the world (37.8%, if adults only are counted; see Global Table 22). This percentage has fallen gradually over the decades until Christians in 1980 numbered 32.8% of the world (34.4% of the world's adults). Likewise, practising Christians have fallen from 29.0% of the world's population in 1900 to 23.3% today." --pg. 7
--*World Christian Encyclopedia,* Ed., David B. Barlett, 1982, Oxford University Press. Under "Christianity in the Global Religious Context," page 5.
****

The atheists in this nation are like the brothers who believe, but in what exactly?

DAR
Atheists believe exactly this: There is no God. That's it.

D.

Seriously, Joshua, I can't decide if you're under the influence of drugs or if you're mentally ill. Could be both, I suppose. Whatever it is, you clearly need professional help.

There was a time when your ranting/raving would have been seen by some people as 'heavenly inspired', and you're more than welcome to go find what's left of them and start your own doomsday cult. But on this board you come across as incoherent, disordered, and . . . well, out of your mind. You don't seem sane to me.

You are obviously in love with the sound of your own sermons, which is just another form of vanity. What does your god think of vanity - out of curiosity? You seem to have a real need for power, and that's probably why you keep hoping that someone here will fall under the spell of your oh-so-dynamic evangelical fire-&-brimstone preaching. Um . . . I can't speak for everyone else, but it's not gonna happen with me, I assure you. If anything, I find you scary. Not the content of what you're saying (which is simply ludicrous), but YOU, as an individual.

Go ahead and follow in the footsteps of every soothsayer in history, and in 30-40 years when you're an old man and God still hasn't come back and smote the "sinners" and taken his followers to heaven, maybe I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say about that non-event. But in the meantime, I'll stick to facts, evidence, and sane people.

Try to have a lucid day.

Joshua Udell wrote:You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets.

No, you can't. All those graves have been lost to time. I suspect that it's the case with Jesus' body as well.

Joshua Udell wrote:The proof is Jesus died and rose!

IOW, your evidence is that there is no evidence. How convenient.

Joshua Udell wrote:Believe me, if you want proof outside the written Word, why won’t believe?

You said it. Because most (maybe all) of the so called proofs have been hoaxes or forgeries.

Joshua Udell wrote:You don’t understand, God’s ways or thoughts.

And, you do? Maybe, there's nothing to understand.

Joshua Udell wrote:The atheists in this nation are like the brothers who believe, but in what exactly?

What in the blazes are you talking about? I don't believe in any god.

Joshua Udell wrote:They say, religion is to blame, but when you show them love at all costs they will begin to wonder ...

In my experience, christians show very little love or tolerence. It's all legalism, guilt, shame, and judgement. There's no love in that. That's why I strive to be the nicest atheist in the world.

Joshua, I have featured your Prophecy on my blog.
http://superstitionfree.blogspot.com/20 ... udell.html

DOUG writes:
Udell has posted this rant on a washington post/newsweek blog.

Utterly shameless.

Udell wrote: Grace, grace is sufficient for all men for all people.

DOUG
Not according to the Bible:
Matthew 7:21, Jesus says: "Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
James 2:17: "faith by itself, if it not accompanied by action, is dead."
James 2:20: "faith without deeds is useless."
James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
Romans 2:13: "not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”

Of course, as in many other areas, the Bible contradicts itself on this, and some verses do say that faith alone is enough for salvation, but the verses above indicate that ACTING ACCORDING TO THE LAW is a necessary condition for salvation.

Udell wrote:The way of the cross is level and straight for everyone and anyone can come to the cross.

DOUG
No, not anyone. Only those drawn to Jesus by God. The Bible makes it clear that one cannot come to Jesus unless God makes that person do so:

John 6:44: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day…"

So if someone is not drawn to Jesus, the Bible says it is God's fault. So why all this unnecessary preaching?

Udell wrote:The choice is yours to accept the forgiveness and to cast your burdens down at the cross. Do you not know it is your choice to accept the cross or leave the cross behind.

DOUG
No, see Jn. 6:44 above. Whether someone can come to Jesus is not his or her choice, it is a matter of whether God draws that person. Grace is a gift, and it is up to God whether a person gets it, not up to the person.

Ephesians 2:8: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The Bible says it is not a person's individual choice whether to come to Jesus and be saved. It is God's choice. So why all this preaching?

Udell wrote:People say we want proof! We want scientific proof! How do you prove an empty grave? There is no body. You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets. The proof is Jesus died and rose!

DOUG
a. The earliest Gospel, Mark, did not have any post-resurrection sightings of Jesus. It is known that the last 12 verses are interpolated. And the Gospel was written by an anonymous author. And this was done decades after the death of Jesus, by someone who, according to Eusebius, who wrote the earliest history of Christianity, was not an eyewitness to any of these events.

b. AND, you don't have an empty tomb. No tomb, full or empty. The tombs that now pass as Jesus' tombs were "discovered" centuries after Jesus. There are at least three of them now, and if tourism picks up, I'm sure they'll open another one. Since you have no empty tomb and no eyewitnesses, why all this talk about an empty tomb? You obviously don't know the first thing about the Bible or the history of your own religion.

c. The grave of the philosopher Immanuel Kant is empty. Does this mean he rose from the dead? No, his grave was robbed. Empty tombs mean nothing about resurrections, especially when you don't have them.

Udell wrote:Many shall say, where is this proof the source outside the Bible? You shall find these discoveries written outside the Bible. You will know, but they will say this is a forgery, this is a hoax this is not proof. Believe me, if you want proof outside the written Word, why won’t believe? You don’t understand, God’s ways or thoughts.

DOUG
What "discoveries" will people find outside the Bible? There is some archaeology that does support some of the claims of the Bible, but there is a whole lot that debunks everything from the enslavement of the Jews by the Egyptians to the patriarchal kingdoms and much, much more.

[snip]

Udell wrote:The atheists in this nation are like the brothers who believe, but in what exactly? They say, religion is to blame, but when you show them love at all costs they will begin to wonder, perhaps this is the first example of what Jesus truly wanted Christians to be.

DOUG
a. Love at all costs? When are Christians going to start doing that? We've been waiting for over 2,000 years.
b. Jesus wanted Christians to be atheists that wonder? Maybe Jesus was a better teacher than I thought!

I love the part where Udell prophecies lots of rain for Pensacola, FL. Gee, how much divine power does it take to prophecy lots of rain, or even a hurricane, in Florida? Hmm...

RobertMadewell wrote:
In my experience, christians show very little love or tolerence. It's all legalism, guilt, shame, and judgement. There's no love in that. That's why I strive to be the nicest atheist in the world.

I honor your commitment to be the nicest atheist in the world. What good will this do? Like missionary/evangelism work/deeds for atheism?

Joshua, I have featured your Prophecy on my blog.
http://superstitionfree.blogspot.com/20 ... udell.html[/quote]

DAR
Atheists believe exactly this: There is no God. That's it.

Does it take a lot of belief or faith to believe there is no God?

Joshua Udell wrote:Does it take a lot of belief or faith to believe there is no God?

DOUG
Does it take a lot of belief or faith to believe there are no leprechauns?

No.


"Udell, is it difficult not believing in me?"

Doug wrote: I love the part where Udell prophecies lots of rain for Pensacola, FL. Gee, how much divine power does it take to prophecy lots of rain, or even a hurricane, in Florida? Hmm...

Yeah, I liked that part, too, Doug. Udell has such amazing abilities to foresee the future.

My military school was in Pensacola. In fact, we had flooding from tropical storms during my last week there in 1984. The city has been through many more tropical storms and hurricanes since. And how about that: I - a little (okay, big) ol' atheist - am still here, and Pensacola is still there.

Joshua Udell wrote:
I honor your commitment to be the nicest atheist in the world. What good will this do?

A LOT of good. Right here, right now, on this PLANET.

SherryH wrote:Try to have a lucid day.

I want that on a T-shirt.

Tim

Joshua Udell wrote:I honor your commitment to be the nicest atheist in the world. What good will this do?

By being a good person without fearing everlasting torture, maybe I can help to despel some of the myths about atheists that people like yourself love to perpetuate. BTW, what kind of alternative can you offer me? I've already seen the nasty side of religion. Ministers all the time preach how loving and kind and patient christians are to be, but I have seen little of that from christianity. The guys on this board have shown me much more love and kindness and understanding in the past year than I have seen from a lifetime of being a fundamentalist.

Joshua Udell wrote:Like missionary/evangelism work/deeds for atheism?

No, atheism can't save you. Maybe, if we as humans need saving, it'll be up to us humans to do the saving. I most certaintly am not going to wait for Jusus. He said that he'd be reurning within the lives of the apostles. Now, 2000 years later, he still is a no show. In another 1000 years our descendants will probably still be looking for his return.

RobertMadewell wrote:

Joshua Udell wrote:Like missionary/evangelism work/deeds for atheism?

ROBERT
No, atheism can't save you. Maybe, if we as humans need saving, it'll be up to us humans to do the saving.

DAR
What you are describing is humanism Robert. Most humanists by far are atheists in my experience. Agnostic at least. Christians like to bash "secular humanism" and call it all sorts of nasty names. Here are the tenants of humanism. See how many you agree with (agreement is not required, these are freethinkers we are talking about). See what you think of them Joshua.

***
The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles

* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.

* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.

* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.

* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.

* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.

* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.

* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.

* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

LINK

*****

There is a longer and more in depth version here.

DAR
Forgiveness for what? Did I do something wrong?

You're joking right?

Unless you're a sociopath, we all know we have done wrong. My apologies if I offended.

How does an atheist define right and wrong, seriously.

Joshua Udell wrote:

DAR
Forgiveness for what? Did I do something wrong?

You're joking right?

DAR
Nope. Not joking. I haven't done anything that I need to be forgiven for. As far as I know, on the rare occasion that I have done something to someone that I have needed to be forgiven for, they have forgiven me and all is well.

How does an atheist define right and wrong, seriously.

DAR
Already provided in the list I just posted above. Eighth up from the bottom has your answer. Simplified of course.

D.

Joshua Udell wrote:How does an atheist define right and wrong, seriously.

DOUG
How do you define it? What an imaginary friend says is wrong is therefore wrong? That hasn't worked in the last four millennia.

For your view of ethics to work, in which you assert that God determines right and wrong, you would need to show:

1. That a god exists.
2. That you know which of all the alleged gods is the right one. (After all, if you are going to obey his commands, you need the right commander.)
3. That this God has actually given out commands.
4. That you can determine which commands are divine and which alleged commands are not. (Even with regard to, say, the God of Abraham, religions and denominations differ as to which are true divine commands. For example, you would probably not accept the precepts found in the Book of Mormon or the Qur'an even though these allegedly proceed from the same god you worship.)
5. That your interpretation of those commands is correct.

In the last four millennia, no theist has been able to get past step #1. None have been able to even begin building a case for god-based ethics. Nor can you. You can't even come close.

And secular ethics? That's easy. If you take a course in ethics at any decent college, 99% of the views of ethics you will study are unrelated to divine commands. There's utilitarianism, Kantian ethics, social contract ethics, etc. etc. If you don't know what these are, get studying.

First off thank you for your well thought out comments.

Doug wrote:DOUG writes:
Udell has posted this rant on a washington post/newsweek blog.

Utterly shameless.

Udell wrote: Grace, grace is sufficient for all men for all people.

DOUG
Not according to the Bible:
Matthew 7:21, Jesus says: "Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
James 2:17: "faith by itself, if it not accompanied by action, is dead."
James 2:20: "faith without deeds is useless."
James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
Romans 2:13: "not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”

Of course, as in many other areas, the Bible contradicts itself on this, and some verses do say that faith alone is enough for salvation, but the verses above indicate that ACTING ACCORDING TO THE LAW is a necessary condition for salvation.

Udell wrote:The way of the cross is level and straight for everyone and anyone can come to the cross.

DOUG
No, not anyone. Only those drawn to Jesus by God. The Bible makes it clear that one cannot come to Jesus unless God makes that person do so:

John 6:44: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day…"

So if someone is not drawn to Jesus, the Bible says it is God's fault. So why all this unnecessary preaching?

I see you like John Calvin as an atheist. Have you forgot John 3:16?

Udell wrote:The choice is yours to accept the forgiveness and to cast your burdens down at the cross. Do you not know it is your choice to accept the cross or leave the cross behind.

DOUG
No, see Jn. 6:44 above. Whether someone can come to Jesus is not his or her choice, it is a matter of whether God draws that person. Grace is a gift, and it is up to God whether a person gets it, not up to the person.

Did Adam and Eve have a choice or were they forced to eat the forbidden fruit? Why would Jesus say come follow Me if there was no choice?

Ephesians 2:8: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

So that no man can say I worked/earned my way to heaven, grace is a FREE gift to any man who accepts God.

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The Bible says it is not a person's individual choice whether to come to Jesus and be saved. It is God's choice. So why all this preaching?

Udell wrote:People say we want proof! We want scientific proof! How do you prove an empty grave? There is no body. You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets. The proof is Jesus died and rose!

DOUG
a. The earliest Gospel, Mark, did not have any post-resurrection sightings of Jesus. It is known that the last 12 verses are interpolated. And the Gospel was written by an anonymous author. And this was done decades after the death of Jesus, by someone who, according to Eusebius, who wrote the earliest history of Christianity, was not an eyewitness to any of these events.

I agree that it very well could have been added, but there are three other Gospels that give a well and accurate account of the death, burial, and resurrection.

b. AND, you don't have an empty tomb. No tomb, full or empty. The tombs that now pass as Jesus' tombs were "discovered" centuries after Jesus.

Agree! I have been to Jerusalem and it says in the Bible that Jesus was buried outside the city walls, so that counts out the Church of the Holy Sepulchre

c. The grave of the philosopher Immanuel Kant is empty. Does this mean he rose from the dead? No, his grave was robbed. Empty tombs mean nothing about resurrections, especially when you don't have them.

Udell wrote:Many shall say, where is this proof the source outside the Bible? You shall find these discoveries written outside the Bible. You will know, but they will say this is a forgery, this is a hoax this is not proof. Believe me, if you want proof outside the written Word, why won’t believe? You don’t understand, God’s ways or thoughts.

DOUG
What "discoveries" will people find outside the Bible? There is some archaeology that does support some of the claims of the Bible, but there is a whole lot that debunks everything from the enslavement of the Jews by the Egyptians to the patriarchal kingdoms and much, much more.

[snip]

Udell wrote:The atheists in this nation are like the brothers who believe, but in what exactly? They say, religion is to blame, but when you show them love at all costs they will begin to wonder, perhaps this is the first example of what Jesus truly wanted Christians to be.

DOUG
a. Love at all costs? When are Christians going to start doing that? We've been waiting for over 2,000 years.
b. Jesus wanted Christians to be atheists that wonder? Maybe Jesus was a better teacher than I thought.

Lol love (agape) is what we need Doug!

And secular ethics? That's easy. If you take a course in ethics at any decent college, 99% of the views of ethics you will study are unrelated to divine commands. There's utilitarianism, Kantian ethics, social contract ethics, etc. etc. If you don't know what these are, get studying.

Even secular ethics are moral based on what is good and bad, and what is right and wrong.

There must be a conscience inside of man to detremine guilt, but where did it come from?

Joshua Udell wrote: Even secular ethics are moral based on what is good and bad, and what is right and wrong.

DOUG
Unlike religious ethics, which are based on some imaginary being's opinion. Can you show otherwise? Do you really think Onan deserved the death penalty for not impregnating his brother's widow? Do you really think a disobedient son should be stoned to death, as prescribed in the Bible?

Joshua Udell wrote:There must be a conscience inside of man to detremine guilt, but where did it come from?

DOUG
A "conscience" as a guide is as good as no guide at all. The conscience of Hitler was markedly different from that of Gandhi, whose was different from the average Christian in the U.S. Jesus would hardly recognize the conscience of the average Christian in the U.S., in fact. Jesus said not to judge, not to stop evil, not to gather wealth, to pay more than you are sued for in court, to turn the other cheek, etc. Hardly any Christians in the U.S. agree with him. I'm sure Udell doesn't.

Where "guilt" comes from can be easily explained by evolutionary principles and a little psychology and sociology. The sciences. It is a complete mystery if one attempts to explain it solely by appeal to theology.

No major ethical theories that have made their mark in the field of ethics use "guilt" as a starting point for determining right and wrong. Guilt is a feeling. To tell someone to do what guilt tells them is basically to say that one ought to be guided by one's feelings. That's hardly a good guide, since people often have different feelings about the same action. Just ask people in prison about it.