fayfreethinkers.com

Okay free thinkers- you are not upset that O- ZERO says:

"We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

John Galt wrote:Okay free thinkers- you are not upset that O- ZERO says:

Gee, Galt, should we be? Why?

DAR
Galt has a learning disorder. He can't even learn the word "freethinker." I suppose it is a difficult word, three syllables and all.

One reason to be "upset" would be if Obama's comment were untrue. Is Obama's comment false or inaccurate?

This is a test. If the student is still struggling by this evening, the teacher will kindly provide the answer.

D.

Do Free thinkers only hate Christians?

DAR
Some of our finest members, who regularly present at our meetings, are Christians who go to church and even serve as board members, etc.

Know what we hate? Ignorance, dishonesty, stupidity. It's only slightly more annoying when it's "faith based."

Now answer the question little grasshopper: "Is Obama's comment false or inaccurate?"



D.

John Galt wrote:Okay free thinkers- you are not upset that O- ZERO says:

Would you be okay with this if he sated that he holds a deep appreciation for Christianity? I really am curious. Come on Galt...get to your point....we are all waiting...

Darrel wrote:Now answer the question little grasshopper: "Is Obama's comment false or inaccurate?" D.

DOUG
Yes, Galt, list the reasons we should not think that Islam has sometimes shaped the world for the better over the centuries. I guess you would not want to include information such as this:

George Sarton's Tribute to Muslim Scientists in the "Introduction to the History of Science," I
"It will suffice here to evoke a few glorious names without contemporary equivalents in the West: Jabir ibn Haiyan, al-Kindi, al-Khwarizmi, al-Fargani, al-Razi, Thabit ibn Qurra, al-Battani, Hunain ibn Ishaq, al-Farabi, Ibrahim ibn Sinan, al-Masudi, al-Tabari, Abul Wafa, 'Ali ibn Abbas, Abul Qasim, Ibn al-Jazzar, al-Biruni, Ibn Sina, Ibn Yunus, al-Kashi, Ibn al-Haitham, 'Ali Ibn 'Isa al-Ghazali, al-zarqab, Omar Khayyam. A magnificent array of names which it would not be difficult to extend. If anyone tells you that the Middle Ages were scientifically sterile, just quote these men to him, all of whom flourished within a short period, 750 to 1100 A.D."

Robert Briffault in the "Making of Humanity"
"It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism, it had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that the new life arose which was to grow into new phase of human evolution. From the time when the influence of their culture made itself felt, began the stirring of new life...
"It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution."

John William Draper in the "Intellectual Development of Europe"
"I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has continued to put out of sight our obligations to the [Muslims]. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever. The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe. He has indelibly written it on the heavens as any one may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe."

See here.

DOUG
And if the Arabs had not kept copies of Plato, Aristotle, and other luminaries of Greek and Roman civilization, when those works were lost or destroyed by short-sighted Christian "scholars" in the West, we might never have known anything of them except their names...

DAR
It's extremely satisfying to take some bit of nonsense that Galt posts and make it into a useful learning exercise. Galt apparently can't defend the point he tried to make in this thread (big surprise) so Doug started providing the answer to my question: "Is Obama's comment false or inaccurate?"

Here's a bit more on the pile.

John Galt wrote:Okay free thinkers- you are not upset that [Obama] says:
"We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said.

DAR
No, I don't think anyone knowledgeable about world history would have any reason to be upset with Obama's claim. It just shows he has some knowledge of world history. Hey Galt, why don't you use this as an opportunity to learn something new?

***
"The accomplishments of Islam's Golden Age are too numerous to mention. Massive translation and copying projects made Greek, Roman, and Sanskrit knowledge available to Arabic-speaking scholars across the empire. Medieval Europe received the Hellenic classics that made the Renaissance possible mostly through Arabic translations. Building on Hellenic, Persian, and Hindu sources, physicians within the Islamic Empire advanced medical knowledge enormously. Perhaps their most significant single achievement was the establishment of medicine as a science based on observation and experimentation, rather than on conjecture. Islamic scientists developed the rudiments of what would later be called the scientific method.

Seventy-five years after the death of Prophet Muhammad (s), the first of many free public hospitals was opened in Damascus. Asylums were maintained throughout the empire for the care of the mentally ill. In the early 10th century, Spanish physician Abu Bakr al-Razi introduced the use of antiseptics in cleaning wounds, and also made the connection between bacteria and infection. Al-Hasan published a definitive study on optics (the science of light and vision) in 965. Thirteenth-century Muslim physician Ibn al-Nafis discovered and accurately described the functioning of the human circulatory system. Islamic veterinary science led the field for centuries, particularly in the study and treatment of horses.

Muslim alchemists (early forerunners of modern chemists) in the 10th to 14th centuries, inspired by ancient chemical formulas from China and India, are famous for the endless experiments they performed in their laboratories. Their goals ranged from pursuit of a chemical elixir bestowing enhanced life, to the transformation of base metals to gold. Although they never succeeded in their ultimate goals, they did make numerous valuable discoveries -- among them the distillation of petroleum and the forging of steel.

Roman techniques of manufacturing glass lenses stimulated Al-Hasan's breakthrough in the field of optics (the science of light and vision), which demolished Aristotle's theory that vision was the result of a ray emanating from the eye, encompassing an object, and bringing it back to the soul. Al-Hasan's Book of Optics, published in 965, was first to document sight as visual images entering the eye, made perceptible by adequate light. This book remained the pre-eminent text in its field until 1610, when the work of European Johannes Kepler surpassed it.

Islamic mathematicians refined algebra from its beginnings in Greece and Egypt, and developed trigonometry in pursuit of accurate ways to measure objects at a distance. Muslim scholars also made important and original contributions to astronomy. They collected and corrected previous astronomical data, built the world's first observatory, and developed the astrolabe, an instrument that was once called "a mathematical jewel."

Islamic architects borrowed heavily from the Byzantine Empire which used domes and arches extensively throughout their cities. An example of this use can be seen in the Dome of the Rock, a famous mosque in Jerusalem.

Avid students of both the heavens and the earth, Muslim scholars made detailed and accurate maps of both. Muslim mapmakers to accurately map distances around the earth refined longitude and latitude. Twelfth-century Persian Omar Khayyam developed a calendar so reliable that over 500 years it was off by only one day. The list goes on and on."

LINK

DAR
Gee Galt, can you find anything in the above that might merit a reason for having "deep appreciation?"

D.

PS. Another note of irony. Galt asks: "Do Free thinkers only hate Christians?"

This from a fellow who gives himself the pseudonym of a fictional atheist character invented by the famous atheist Ayn Rand.

Okay free thinkers...

What are the contributions of Christians??????

TMJG, I think it's your turn to answer a question.

The Mighty John Galt wrote:Okay free thinkers...

What are the contributions of Christians??????

DOUG writes:
A. Regarding the utility of religion in general, Bertrand Russell said:

My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others.

B. Regarding the contributions of Christians, in a Christian-dominated country (and civilization) they are too numerous to need mention. Only an idiot would think that nonbelievers hate Christianity and love all other religions. Of the thousands of freethinkers I've met at local meetings and national conventions, I know of none who hate only Christianity and love the other religions.

The reason that freethinkers tend to rail against Christianity more than other religions is that Christianity is more of an influence in this country than any other religion and it is the one people try to force upon others in this country. If you can't see that, you are definitely not smarter than a fifth-grader.

The Mighty John Galt wrote:Okay free thinkers(sic)...
What are the contributions of Christians??????

DAR
Hey, wasn't that Dave guy, the one who started Wendy's a Christian? I think he was. So we can thank Christians for the square beef patty.

J.S. Bach once said he wrote (or maybe "dedicated") his music (about 178 hours worth) "to the glory of God." That's nice. I think he probably would have written it anyway.

There have to be some other contributions. What I am forgetting? Maybe there are some things to consider that might go in the... "bad" column.

Let's see, the Nazis were certainly a Christian enterprise. Hitler, a catholic, filled his Mein Kampf with Bible verses explaining how he was simply carrying on the work of Lord Jesus by going after the Jews. To quote: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

But he had lots of help:

"[The truth is that] six million Jews were targeted and
systematically murdered in the heart of Christendom, by baptized
Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox who were
never rebuked, let alone excommunicated."
--Dr. Franklin Littell of Baylor University speaking at US Holocaust Memorial Museum, on 12/8/93

So they get a big chunk of the holocaust and WW2 also, (that's a biggie). This goes in the bad column.

What else have we got? There was The Dark Ages. That's when religion really ruled the day. Don't forget the Witch hunts (and torture, burnings and hangings). Oh, and The Inquisition. Not good. Then there was the countless pogroms against the Jews (that's when the christian mob comes to your house, kills the parents, burns the house and throws the children in the river). Definitely in the bad column. Most cultures have slavery in their past somewhere (and it still goes on today) but Christianity, having had it clearly legislated and God approved in their inerrant holy book, took an especially long time before the secularists and freethinkers were able to get them to give it up. Bad column.

How about helping assist and feed racism and bigotry? Their battle to keep the gays down is going down fast but lets not forget that the KKK was/is certainly a christian organization. Consider:

"...in the heydey of the KKK, perhaps 40,000 members were Christian ministers (Robert Wistrich's _Anti-Semitism: The Longest Hatred). Anyone interested in debunking the historical revisionism that places Christianity in the forefront of civil rights and opposition to American slavery should take a look at Forrest G. Woods' _The Arrogance of Faith: Christianity and Race in America from the Colonial Era to the Twentieth Century_."

How about stifling science? Fighting tooth and nail against the fact of evolution? Astronomy? Fighting against the enlightenment? Martin Luther, (founder of Protestantism) and his holy battle against reason?

So you're right Galt, Christians have made quite a contribution. But these are just off the top of my head. Feel free to add to my list on the good side or bad. What have you got Galt? I hope I haven't been to hard on the Christians. I sure do like them! At least now I do, now that they have been so heavily secularized and don't believe their Bibles much.

There are so many little examples of religion, with it's disdain for reason and reality, causing problems and impeding progress. For example:

"When the relief of pain was applied to childbirth, the clergy, those bastions of progress, objected strongly, citing the biblical verse "in pain shalt thou bring forth children" (actually, "sorrow" is a better translation of Gen 3:16). As a result, many clergy fought bitterly against the use of anesthetics in childbirth. Queen Victoria turned the tide in favor of childbirth anesthesia when she used it herself."
--Gordon Stein, Ph. D. in July/Aug issue of The American Rationalist (pg. 30).

D.
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Oh, and do be careful to notice that the Islamic time spoken of earlier in this thread (and by Obama) refer to a "sweet spot" a "golden era" when Islam put aside it's worst qualities and embraced science and reason. If you read the link I provided, it explains why Islam went from this successful period to the repressive, backward, dismal state it is in today.

DAR
I forgot the Crusades.

Darrel wrote:I forgot the Crusades.

And "W"!

DAR
I was saving him (the "W"orst) for last!