Promoting Freethinking in NW Arkansas
http://fayfreethinkers.com./forums/
As a scientist, I'm terribly offended: I don't chase altar boys.some moron pastor wrote:Scientist [is] the priest
Hmmm, I think it takes a lot of spiritual guidance to get to what the sign says out of that. I think the verse above that one is much more appropriate."My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:" Proverbs 1:8
I know it's a simple typo. I make them all the time myself. It's just funny that it takes an atheist to catch that error. I bet if one of Kirkpatrick's parishoners had looked the reference up (instead of taking everything their pastor says as truth), that mistake would have been corrected before I read it."The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7
Heath,
I'd like to explain a few things to you, if you don't mind.
Why I'm an atheist:
Because I no longer believe that God is real.
That's it. I don't worship Darwin, I don't seek spiritual guidance from biologists, there's no rituals that I have to perform before I eat, The Theory of Evolution had nothing to do with my "becoming" an atheist, and I have never ever read The Orgin of Species.
However, I have read the Bible. Twice. From front to back and that had more to do with me not believing than any science class ever did. The clincher was reading Deuteronomy 21:18-21 for the first time. Even for Jews under The Law, I can not accept that commandment as being moral. I was a bit rebellious as a teen. However, I came through that period and became even closer to my parents as a young adult. According to the bible, I should have never been given that chance. I had to try to justify that commandment somehow. The only way that I could was to give up the doctrine of inerrancy. I later realized that the bible was not written by God and that it wasn't even written by men inspired by God. It was written instead by men inspired by power and greed. Verses like that one are obviously (to me) written to promote fear in people so that the priests could control them.
I realize that your sign was not intentionally hateful. But it may be subtly hateful, because it inspires an "us and them" mentality. I do not consider christians as being "them". Christians are a big part of my society and to be hostile toward christians would be counter-productive. I have to accept y'all as you are. I don't want to convert or prosyletize. There's no salvation in being an atheist. I just want to get along with my religious neighbors. However, it's hard to do that when I seem to have an undeserved reputation of being immoral, wicked and doing nothing good (Psalms 14:1). I am not a "them", I am an American, an Ozarker, and an Arkansan just like you and your congregation. I was even raised as a christian by a minister. I just happen to not believe in God anymore. I just don't buy it anymore. I am no longer convinced.
You may be interested to know that for a long time I still attended church after I no longer believed. I was trying to believe. I was trying to do the "right" thing. Instead I was having such terrible feelings of guilt. Not guilt for being a sinner, but guilt felt because I just couldn't find that switch to throw that would make me believe. I realized that belief is not a voluntary thing. Either you believe or you don't. So, I stopped lying to myself. Sure, claiming to be an atheist is not very comfortable, but at least it's honest. Keep that in mind. Because, someone just like me may be sitting in your congregation every sunday and the more you make non-belief sound bad the more guilt, shame, and depression someone in your church may feel. Please be gentle to that person.
Your sign comes on the heels of a slight personal tragedy. My wife's family discovered that I am an atheist and they over-reacted a bit. I really felt scared. I love my neices and nephews. I was so afraid that my in-laws would no longer let me spend time with them. I still don't know how I stand with them. I am playing it cool, trying not to invoke any discussion about it. My wife's family knows me well, so I really shouldn't fear being cast out by them. I've associated as an atheist for about two years and they have had no problem with me for all that time. I have not tried to indoctrinate thier kids (and I won't). So, why should they have a problem now? What I'm afraid of is that one of my sister-in-laws will get some bad counseling. They both have pastors that they talk to and it would be a shame for them to ban thier children from my wife and I over advice given from someone who does not know me. Also, it would break my heart. My wife and I have no children, so the frequent visits we used to get was very welcome. Sadly, I fear that those visits are going to be rare now. The only reason I can see for this is that atheism is seen as something bad when it really is not.
That brings me to what I call Postive Atheism. It's not a religion. It's just the view that atheism is not a bad thing. That's what I want to promote. If I can get the message that it's OK not to believe out, maybe, someone who just happens to not believe won't have to endure the guilt and heart-break that I have had to bear. It's not about de-converting anyone. It's about reaching those who are already non-believers and letting them know that they are not alone and that it's not a bad thing to not be convinced.
Robert Madewell
Proud to be superstition-free!
Yes. I assumed you were just being modest or something...It certainly did convey a sincerity that hopefully was not lost on its intended recipient.JamesH wrote: I liked your letter even if you felt it was not very articulate.
I always find it insulting that religious Joe Schmoes (or is that Joe Schmucks?) think that they can take at all that we tell them about our thought processes and considerations in support of our atheistic beliefs, look at them fleetingly through their rose-tinted glasses, and conclude that they understand our beliefs better than we do. But really, it's just more of the same type of absurdity that keeps them from abandoning their ridiculous beliefs.Heath wrote:Although, I still believe technically you're agnostic,
DOUGDarrel wrote:DAR
I roasted the guy to a crisp.D.
DOUG"I once was a slave to a legalistic religion that did seek to control me by fear but then God saved me by losing me religion and giving me a relationship."
I think I should point out something here. I have in the past pointed out to this minister that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. You can actually be agnostic and atheistic at the same time. You can also be agnostic and theistic at the same time as well. I think the admission by Heath that he can't prove that God exists scientifically should be considered an admission of agnosticism. That makes him an Agnostic Theist. Tu quoque!Heath wrote:"We both have faith systems, Robert, because neither you nor I can prove scientifically God's existence or lack thereof."
DOUGPastor wrote:"...God saved me by losing me religion and giving me a relationship."
Doug's presentation on this topic (from the March 2009 meeting) can now be found on our website here.Doug wrote:It is notorious regarding the New Testament, and the Bible in general, that it is horribly inconsistent about what one must do to be saved. But among the contradictory Biblical claims about what will lead to salvation having a relationship with Jesus is not among them.
