fayfreethinkers.com

VATICAN CITY - Believing that the universe may contain alien life does not contradict a faith in God, the Vatican's chief astronomer said in an interview published Tuesday.

The Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, was quoted as saying the vastness of the universe means it is possible there could be other forms of life outside Earth, even intelligent ones.

"How can we rule out that life may have developed elsewhere?" Funes said. "Just as we consider earthly creatures as 'a brother,' and 'sister,' why should we not talk about an 'extraterrestrial brother'? It would still be part of creation."

See here.

One up for the Vatican. We DON'T know if there is other life out there somewhere, but any religion positing a universal god should permit belief in life elsewhere.

Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:... any religion positing a universal god should permit belief in life elsewhere.

The key word there is should. Many don't. Many fundies would rather believe in a simple universe instead of the vast complex one that we see through telescopes.

When I was a kid, I asked my Dad if space aliens were posible, after watching Star Trek. He simply said, "no" and without any explaination, grounded me from watching Star Trek. It was a while until I got to watch it again. Once, I showed my Dad the star Sirius in the sky and said that it is "Bigger than the Sun" and he told me that it was going to fall to the earth in the last days so it couldn't be bigger than the Sun. I was an adult when that happened so I didn't get punished for it, but if I was younger, I would have been.

I realize that maybe most Christians are not as backward as this, but my experience is that there are lots of them that are very backward. They are the ones that want to teach creationism as science and use the Holey Bi Bull as a history course. Their slim worldview can not account for the huge, vast, and intricate universe we live in. So, they want to designate reality. The fact is that reality is reality and it won't change even if the whole world votes for it to. You can not legislate the truth.

RobertMadewell wrote:I was an adult when that happened so I didn't get punished for it, but if I was younger, I would have been.

DAR
Holy Cow!

RobertMadewell wrote:I realize that maybe most Christians are not as backward as this, but my experience is that there are lots of them that are very backward.

DOUG
Yes, but they are on borrowed time. Their kids are not buying the bull the fundie parents are shoveling. Statistics show this. The fundies are losing, big time.

If they lose the majority of the next generation, they're sunk. So they're sunk.

The culture wars are over, and the fundies lost.

Doug wrote:The culture wars are over, and the fundies lost.

But battles still rage nonetheless, and I'd like to win those. Brainwashing and stupefying is still reprehensible even when the victims constitute only a minority.

Savonarola wrote:

Doug wrote:The culture wars are over, and the fundies lost.

DAR
I think that's a little premature to say the least. How can you say that when you struggle to have your kids be taught evolution, in high school, in Fayetteville.
Also for instance, if the fundies in California manage to overturn their supreme court ruling allowing gay marriage (by changing their constitution), it will take many more years for the population to shift enough to change the state constitution back. Twenty-six states have already changed their constitution to ban gay marriage (including Arkansas).

In Canada it's pretty much over (abortion is still an issue, along with a few others). It ain't over here. The fundies are losing yes. The clock is ticking on their silliness. But they will probably be around and kicking for our lifetime. They have a motivated group and they have money (Robertson is a billionaire, Dobson's probably worth 100's of millions). And they will get more and more desperate too.

D.

Darrel wrote:But they will probably be around and kicking for our lifetime. They have a motivated group and they have money (Robertson is a billionaire, Dobson's probably worth 100's of millions). And they will get more and more desperate too.

DOUG
They will be gone sooner than you think, depending on how long your lifetime is.

Their own kids are not buying the bullshit, by 2-1 margins. Barring mass conversions for some reason, most of their numbers come from their own offspring. So if their kids don't buy into it, in one generation the fundies will be irrelevant. In two generations they will be relegated to the status they have in Europe and Canada.


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A USA Today/Gallup Poll in 2002-JAN showed that almost half of American adults appear to be alienated from organized religion. If current trends continue, most adults will not call themselves religious within a few years. Results include:

About 50% consider themselves religious (down from 54% in 1999-DEC)
About 33% consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" (up from 30%)
About 10% regard themselves as neither spiritual or religious.

Source: Cathy Grossman, "Charting the unchurched in America," USA Today, 2002-MAR-7

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The ARIS survey asked the subjects whether they had changed their religious identification during their lifetime. Some results:

About 16% of adults have changed their identification.
For the largest group, the change was abandoning all religion.
Baptists picked up the largest number of any religion: 4.4 million. But they also lost 4.6 million.
Roman Catholics lost the greatest number, 9.5 million. However, they also picked up 4.3 million.

"American Religious Identification Survey," by The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, 2001, at: This site. It's a pdf file.

I'm sorry if my last post was a bit off topic.

I was trying to give examples of how some christians believe in a simple universe.

Doug wrote: DOUG
They will be gone sooner than you think, depending on how long your lifetime is.

DAR
I am shooting for 2050 (I'll be 83). Of course I reserve the right to modify that when the time comes (stay away organ collectors!).

DOUG
Their own kids are not buying the bullshit, by 2-1 margins.

DAR
It is a very strong trend but kids are notoriously rebellious and often swing back when they are older, have children (which need to be taught morals right?) and it is time to inherit the family stuff.

Barring mass conversions for some reason, most of their numbers come from their own offspring. So if their kids don't buy into it, in one generation the fundies will be irrelevant. In two generations they will be relegated to the status they have in Europe and Canada.

DAR
Possible. But I think that is still optimistic. Christian Fundyism is entrenched deep in the US. And look at the science education and evolution belief numbers. Not good.

I have seen secular societies. Canada, Vancouver. We are a long way from that. But we are heading there quickly. Just watch how fundies are regularly roasted on TV. Remember, Bill Mahar movie coming July 15.

Religulous.

D.

Unfortunately, bad times lead to fundie (and other religious) increases - and we are headed for bad times. Something about living on the edge and not being able to do anything about it seems to send people running to some super power for help - and believing that any upturn in their fortune is a result of worshipping that super power. If we don't get out of the double-deep economic and environmental hole we're in, religion will be on the rise again in 5 years or so. If it gets bad enough, my sons, grandsons, and I (plus two of my sisters) may get burned at the stake.