fayfreethinkers.com

BTW, To date he has not disproved ANY of the allegations made in 2004.
Another "FREE" THINKER MYTH...

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007 ... news09.txt

$1 million at stake in Swift Boat, Kerry bet
By JAMIE KELLY of the Missoulian

With a million-dollar wager on the line, U.S. Sen. John Kerry had better make sure he's got plenty of money in his checking account, said a Missoula man who helped sink the one-time presidential candidate's bid for the White House.

Weymouth Symmes, treasurer of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, said the Massachusetts Democrat was a fool for taking up a Texas millionaire's challenge to disprove any of the group's accusations calling Kerry's Vietnam record into question during the last election.

“He should put his money where his mouth is,” said Symmes, a Navy veteran and author, in an interview Saturday.

The challenge came Nov. 6 from T. Boone Pickens, who helped bankroll the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in 2004. During a speech in Washington celebrating the 40th anniversary of American Spectator magazine, Pickens said he would personally pay $1 million if Kerry can disprove any one of the group's allegations.

Kerry took him up on the deal Friday, even after Pickens upped the challenge by saying that if Kerry can't disprove the allegations, Kerry himself would have to pay $1 million.

Pickens said he will pay $1 million to the Paralyzed Veterans of America; Kerry agreed to give his money to the Congressional Medal of Honor Foundation.

Symmes, who has called Kerry a liar and said the senator's testimony about Vietnam disgraced all veterans of that war, said Pickens doesn't have a thing to worry about.

“It's a safe bet, quite frankly,” he said from his winter home in Arizona. Pickens “is an astute and smart guy.”

First in the book “Unfit for Command,” and then in a series of television commercials, Kerry's critics challenged the circumstances of his military awards, accusing him of doctoring reports, and argued he never traveled into Cambodia as claimed.

Kerry was largely silent on the accusations during the campaign, which many say helped legitimize his critics and led to his defeat by George W. Bush.

The fact that Kerry accepted the challenge puts the issue back in the spotlight, much to the annoyance of Symmes.

“He's a narcissist and everything he does is for his own political gain,” he said.

In a letter to Pickens on Friday, Kerry offered to travel to Dallas to meet with the oilman in a public forum - or to host him in Massachusetts. He suggested the two could visit the Paralyzed Veterans of American in Norwood to see firsthand how Pickens' money could be used to help veterans.

“I am certainly open to your challenge,” Pickens responded.

DOUG
But don't forget, they would NOT accept Kerry's evidence that refutes them. They would not let him meet their challenge to refute them. The cowards.

From wikipedia:
SBVT members also criticized Kerry for not releasing his own private journals and letters. However, SBVT members themselves refused to release documents. For example, a journal by another of the Swift boat commanders and the relevant Navy records of some of the SBVT members involved in specific allegations have not been released.

The White House refused to release records detailing any Bush administration contacts with prominent individuals associated with SBVT. The denied Freedom of Information Act request was filed on August 24 by Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.
========

DOUG
So the Swiftboat liars offered a prize if they could be refuted, Kerry rose to the challenge, and then they refuse to look at his evidence unless he first releases some irrelevant papers.

What hypocrites and cowards.

Lord help us if we use "wikipedia" as a source, Kerry could release his navy medical records. He won't. I wonder why? Because the sbvt are telling the truth. Kerry is fraud.

hillwilllose wrote: Lord help us if we use "wikipedia" as a source,

Hey, thanks for the example of the genetic fallacy! That's when you criticize a claim based on its source instead of its merits.

hillwilllose wrote: Kerry could release his navy medical records. He won't. I wonder why? Because the sbvt are telling the truth. Kerry is fraud.

Gee, the Swiftboat Liars for the GOP won't even look at Kerry's evidence to meet their challenge. Why is that? They issue the challenge and then RUN when Kerry rises to meet it.

hillwilllose wrote:
Lord help us if we use "wikipedia" as a source,...

DAR
I find Wikipedia to be in fact an excellent reference tool and it has the benefit of being constantly updated. As with any claim one should check the references and be skeptical of any extraordinary claims but this is true of any source.

Doug is right. The wingnut who made the million dollar challenge is waffling, moving the goal posts and backing away. Right-wing cowards.

***
Swift Boat challenge

The Swift Boat challenge from Texas oilman T. Boone Pickens is his reported offer of US $ 1 million to anyone who can disprove even a single charge made by the Swift Vets and POWs for Truth, formerly the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, during the 2004 Presidential election campaign. [1]

Pickens, who had given the group $3 million in funding during the campaign, issued the challenge on 6 November 2007 in Washington, D.C, while serving as chairman of a 40th anniversary gala for The American Spectator magazine.[1][2][3]

On 16 November,[4] U.S. Senator John Kerry, whose military service was a target of the groups's televised ads, book, and various media releases and appearances, wrote a letter to Pickens accepting the offer.[1] Kerry asked Mr. Pickens to donate the $1 million to the Paralyzed Veterans of America should he succeed in proving any of the charges untrue.[1]
Wikisource has original text related to this article:
T. Boone Pickens letter in response to Senator John Kerry

That same day, Pickens issued a response, saying he was "open" to Kerry's suggestion, but only mentioning the group's ads, and additionally requiring Kerry to provide his Vietnam journal, all of his military records, specifically those covering the years after his active duty service, and copies of all movies and tapes made during his service.[4] Pickens' letter also challenged Kerry to agree to donate $1 million to the Congressional Medal of Honor Foundation, if Kerry "cannot prove anything in the Swift Boat ads to be untrue."[4]

Kerry was reported to have left on an overseas trip by the time the counterproposal was delivered. However his aide, David Wade, responded that "It appears that Mr. Pickens is backing off his original challenge. Sen. Kerry took Mr. Pickens as a man of his word who, when he talks the talk, is willing to walk the walk."[4]
Wikisource has original text related to this article:
Senator John Kerry's letter of reply to T. Boone Picken's letter

On 20 November, Kerry issued a letter responding to Pickens' letter. He accused Pickens of "parsing and backtracking" on his initial offer and wrote that "I am prepared to prove the lie and marshal all the evidence, the question is whether you are prepared to fulfill your obligation." He concluded that "the only thing remaining now is to set the date for our meeting in an appropriate forum...." [5]

Swift Boat Challenge
***

John Kerry's extensive navel records can be viewed here.

The way the republicans have treated this veteran is disgraceful.

D.

I think we can all agree that when we see an old timer tooling down the interstate in his Grand Marquis, with a Purple Heart license plate- we all respect him and assume he had a serious injury.

Media Matters says that since during Vietnam, any wound qualifies for a purple heart the SBVT are wrong. If you speak to a Vietnam Vet- no self respecting Vet would claim a purple heart for scratch. If you jammed your finger on a patrol- in theory you could get a purple heart. I think we can all agree that a person missing limbs in no way compares to a jammed thumb. The SBVT say that Kerry did exactly that, and they were there.

In my opinion, the most serious allegation from the SBVT is that Kerry claimed 3 purple hearts for very, very, very minor injuries. The link you provided, when you click on the 3 Purple Hearts citations produce nothing. (I wonder why?) Kerry has never released his service medical records citing privacy.

I think it reasonable to assume that as a young man, Kerry showed poor judgement (like most of us did when we were young) and decided if he was going to Vietnam, he would get some medals. As time as passed, and we have all seen the seriously wounded soldiers, his Purple Hearts would seem rightly ridiculous if people knew the extent of his injuries.

Most of us would come clean, the problem is that Kerry has built his career as a decorated naval officer. I suspect he did not envision himself testifying before congress when he got his purple hearts, so it is be understandably difficult for him to come clean- so he accuses his accusers (what is that called Doug?)

The SBVT were justified to question Kerry.

He certainly acts like a man who has something to hide. It is Mr. Pickens million dollars and he is justified in setting the terms of the bet. I think if Kerry would sign the form and release his medical records, Mr. Pickens would be happy. The problem is that Kerry will look like a fool and so the records will never, never be released. And Kerry has dodged questions about his Purple Hearts for many years. That will not change.

My frustration with this board is that most posters appear not to be free or thinkers. You are all very partisan liberals. That is fine. Please don't pretend to be great thinkers who "know" so much more than "evil" conservatives. You know your little corner of the world.

It is easy to say "Tax the rich". The tax man enforces his edicts with a gun. It is another thing to earn large sums of money and then give your opinion on high taxes. Really, until you make a lot of money, your opinion on high taxes means very little.

I'm sorry that the Ronnie Floyds of the world have turned you off religion. I don't blame you for that. But please know, our creator is real and loves us all.

Please relax and enjoy your lives. The world is a wonderful place and we're here for a very short time.

John

John Galt wrote:In my opinion, the most serious allegation from the SBVT is that Kerry claimed 3 purple hearts for very, very, very minor injuries.

DOUG
And your evidence is these Swiftboat LIARS who have been completely discredited?

=======================

Fellow anti-Kerry Swift Boat Vets member Larry Thurlow has also cited Gardner as eyewitness support for his accusations against Kerry and against Kerry's first Purple Heart. Yet while Gardner did serve as a gunner under Kerry's command on PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) 44, he has admitted that he -- just like the rest of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claiming that Kerry is lying about his medals -- was not present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of any medals or any of Kerry's three Purple Hearts.
...On the August 16 edition of MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews, Thurlow cited Gardner to substantiate his claim that Kerry's first Purple Heart "was fabricated and wasn't based on any factuality at all." According to Thurlow, Gardner said "that he [Kerry] received an injury due to a mistake he made when he fired an M-79 close aboard and was hit by his own shrapnel" and that "Kerry applied for a Purple Heart that he did not merit."

On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him but I -- in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations."

See here.
===================

See also this page for a debunking of five standard SBVT lies.

John Galt wrote:I think we can all agree that when we see an old timer tooling down the interstate in his Grand Marquis, with a Purple Heart license plate- we all respect him and assume he had a serious injury.

DAR
No, I don't assume that. I assume he saw combat, received a wound of some sort and was awarded this medal from the government.

GALT
Media Matters says that since during Vietnam, any wound qualifies for a purple heart the SBVT are wrong.

DAR
If the military awards you a purple heart, you are the recipient of a purple heart award. The military awarded John Kerry the purple heart.

If there was a chickenhawk award, GW Bush and a great number of those in his administration would be awarded "The Chickenhawk." Perhaps he could even get a little trophy like this:



Imagine if Kerry had gotten out of Vietnam and said something like this:

"Getting into the Guard. Enlisting in the Guard was one way to beat the draft and avoid being sent to Vietnam. Is this why Bush signed up? During the campaign, Bush said no. Yet in 1994, he had remarked, "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Not was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." LINK

GALT
The SBVT say that Kerry did exactly that, and they were there.

DAR
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. They specifically were not there as Doug already pointed out and anyone familiar with this story knows.

GALT
In my opinion, the most serious allegation from the SBVT is that Kerry claimed 3 purple hearts for very, very, very minor injuries.

DAR
These awards are given at the discretion of the military. The military awarded Kerry these awards. Get over it.

GALT
The link you provided, when you click on the 3 Purple Hearts citations produce nothing. (I wonder why?)

DAR
I don't know. Maybe he has oversize balls. After all it takes pretty big balls to volunteer for duty in Vietnam.

Let's ask him:

Kerry allows Navy release of military, medical records
Show numerous commendations

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | June 7, 2005

Excerpt:

"On May 20, Kerry signed a document called Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to send an ''undeleted" copy of his ''complete military service record and medical record" to the Globe. Asked why he delayed signing the form for so long, Kerry said in a written response: ''The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn't kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out."

Boston Globe

GALT
Kerry has never released his service medical records citing privacy.

DAR
If that is true, and it doesn't seem to be, it is his right.

GALT
Most of us would come clean, the problem is that Kerry has built his career as a decorated naval officer.

DAR
This is no doubt due to the fact that he is, undisputedly, a decorated naval officer.

GALT
He certainly acts like a man who has something to hide. It is Mr. Pickens million dollars and he is justified in setting the terms of the bet.

DAR
Rubbish. You are spinning. Pickens offered the award for the verification of a lie. As Kerry put it in his response to Pickens:

"...you personally “staked one million dollars” that “no one” could “prove anything the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said in 2004 was false” (RedState.Com) and offered “a million dollars to anyone who could prove wrong anything the Swiftboat Veterans charged about Kerry.” (AmericanThinker.com)

Kerry called him on it and now Pickens is waffling and adding piles of bells and whistles because he knows he has been had. The SBVT are serial liars and it is not difficult to demonstrate their dishonesty.

It is informative to read John Kerry's response to the dishonest waffle words of Mr. Picken's. He made the challenge and then backtracked. Kerry does a very good job of pointing this out here Senator John Kerry's letter of reply to T. Boone Picken's letter.

GALT
My frustration with this board is that most posters appear not to be free or thinkers.

DAR
I don't believe that for a minute. Your frustration is that on the facts you will consistently have your ass handed to you in this forum. Your posts are filled with insults and emotion but you don't know how to back up your claims. We will wipe the floor with you. All you have done so far is hit and run. I was lamenting to Doug the other day that it would be really nice to come across an honest, forthright, intelligent conservative who is willing to actually stand up and defend their positions. I don't doubt that they exist. I see them on TV sometimes. I read their articles. If you know one please send them along.

GALT
But please know, our creator is real and loves us all.

DAR
If you would like to support that statement (in a new thread) with a little evidence, that would be nice too.

Darrel.

I'm sorry that the Ronnie Floyds of the world have turned you off religion. I don't blame you for that. But please know, our creator is real and loves us all.
posted by John Galt

Take that one over to the religion thread and we can have some real fun.

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." --Isaiah 45:7[/b]