fayfreethinkers.com

DAR
This incredibly ignorant article in the NWA Times by Church of Christ minister John Terry needs to be responded to. You can submit letters to the editor here:

email@nwarktimes.com

Please post them here as well.

There is already a discussion of this article on the Sam Harris forum here. It has lots of good references roasting the material below.

***
ON THE ECONOMY : A solemn and sad situation

Not long ago the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette published an interesting article entitled “ Passionate Atheists. ” This caught my attention immediately.

My first thought was, “ How do you get passionate about nothing ? ” If no God exists, what is there to get passionate about ? Why do professed atheists find it necessary to convert other people to their unbelief, since there is nothing of substance there to convince them of ?

My second thought was, “ Isn’t this statement, passionate atheists, close to being an oxymoron ?”

I have been in the ministry many years, and in every one of them the subject of atheism has reared its head. However, periodically (usually about every decade ) there is a push to convince people that there is no God. In the United States, as it has become more liberal in theology, more people have, as the article stated, “ come out of the closet” and admitted their unbelief, much in the same way as homosexuals have admitted their sexual preferences.

Both of these are symbols of the moral and spiritual decline of a nation, and this is happening in the United States with disturbing rapidity.

Contrary to the apparent belief of atheists, their nonbelief is not a danger to Christianity, nor to individual Christians. Nor does it change the existence of God. It does pose dangers, however, and the dangers are these:

The first danger is the unbeliever himself. He is left with no god but himself, no wisdom but his own (except the wisdom of men ) and no hope of a life beyond this one. Worst of all, he is in danger of facing an eternity devoid of the God he denied. In short, he wanted it that way, and that is the way he got it. A solemn and sad situation.

The second danger is that the atheist may be able to persuade others (I knew of one situation like this where an older man concentrated on young people ) that his unbelief is really true. This might consign those he persuaded to the same fate that is in store for him.

The third danger lies in what kind of person the atheist may become when he becomes his own god. If he does not recognize God, he may not recognize any of the restraints that a belief in God generates. Thus, without restraint, he may become a pedophile, a murderer, a thief, or any other kind of a deviant you can think of. Or he might just become one who lives inward, with no concern for the people or things around him. There are tragic examples of such people.

In the long years of being a minister I think I have known no more than two dozen people who loudly declared that there is no God. I did not believe in any of them. I have found that the man who so professes may be just “ whistling past the graveyard. ” In short, because of the life he has lived, he may just be hoping against hope that there is no God to whom he might someday have to answer.

I was not raised in a “ church-going” family, yet the name of God was revered in our home. My parents never used the name of God in vain, nor any of the by-words popular in those days. So I always believed in a God; I just wanted him to leave me alone and let me live my life the way I wanted to. In fact, at an early age I had planned my life, and no god was included in it.

However, my father died of a heart attack when he was 43, and I was 18. I had just returned home after spending a year-and-a-half in a tuberculosis sanitarium in Colorado Springs. When my father died he left my mother and me with six little brothers and sisters to raise.

And, though I did not know God, I became terribly angry with him. In the “ old days” nearly everything was ascribed to God. If there was a tragedy in the home, old preachers would declare that it was “ God’s will. ” I came to hate that expression, and have refused to use it throughout my ministry, as it related to things I just could not understand. I look askance at any preacher who always seems to know what “ the will of God is. ”

Why are atheists coming out of the “ closet” now ? Simple. The country has become so secularized, and has adopted an “ anything goes” attitude, so deviants of any nature now feel it is safe to declare themselves. Also, led by many prominent universities, it has now become “ politically correct” for people to try to be “ different. ” Factually, it does not brand people as intellectual or brave, but contemptuous of centuries of solid beliefs and traditions.

In the Bible, few people are so chastised as are avowed atheists. In Proverbs 1: 7 are these words: “ The fear (awe ) of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. ”

So, unless the avowed atheist is prepared to account for the universe, for man in all of his complexities, and life in general, he certainly is not prepared to declare that “ there is no God. ”

He is revealed, not as an intellectual, but as a gadfly with no answers to anything. It is even more plain in Psalms 14: 1: “ The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. ”

Ted Turner once said, in speaking of the Lord, “ I do not need anyone to die for me. ” Well, perhaps he doesn’t know all of the truth. Personally, I need a Savior, and I am happy I found out the truth as young as I did. The sad thing about the atheist is that he may find out the truth after it is too late.

So please don’t feel sorry for those of us who believe in God, who build churches, attend churches, send missionaries, and do every kind of charitable work known to man. Even if we were wrong in all this, we would still be better off than the atheist. At least we would have lived lives that helped us, and more importantly, helped others.

I know that most atheists are probably not bad people. But they are sadly misguided in their thinking, and in their hearts many of them probably know it. One should not live his life as a fool when he can live it as a child of God, and have the promise of everlasting life.

---------------
John Terry of Siloam Springs is an economist, minister and veteran.

LINK

I am the president of Occam’s Razors, a Freethought group at the University of Arkansas (www.razorbackfreethought.org). My group includes people who do not believe there is any evidence there is a supreme supernatural being of any kind; in other words, atheists. John Terry’s article of September 22, On the economy: a solemn and sad situation represents a skewed and dangerous perception of atheism that is not accurate, has no basis in fact, and is based entirely upon bias, ignorance, and a disregard of anyone who does not think as he does.

I recently returned to school after almost two decades in law enforcement with the last five being in federal law enforcement dealing with counter-terrorism. I came to realize that the tragedy of 9/11/01 were the result of a group of people who took religious doctrine literally and believed in it enough to kill themselves and thousands of innocent people because they believed that god wanted them to do so and would reward them. They were right and they knew it; they had a book that told them so and all they needed was faith to believe its every word.

John Terry’s comments regarding atheists being in danger of becoming pedophiles, murderers, thieves, or other forms of social deviants is incredible. It’s even more incredible to think that a modern newspaper would allow such hate-speech to be published. There have been a number of violent events sparked at schools and universities across the country over smaller things than religion. The Virginia Tech shooting involved a shooter with an untreated psychiatric disorder who probably did not need much of a push to start thinking about the reasons to turn to violence. If anyone were to take John Terry’s article seriously, it could easily incite someone in NWA to think about the possibility of violence against those people who are just a step away from killing and abusing children.

Our country is the most religious country in the world and arguably at its most religious state in its history but has the social problems of a third-world country in areas such as teen pregnancy, abortion, and violent crimes. The far less religious European nations have notably fewer social problems compared with the U.S. Does this mean that religion caused this? No, it does not prove that but the correlation is well worth considering; the fact that we are a very religious country and have these problems suggests that religion will not effectively address these issues. For more information, see Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies by Gregory S. Paul in the Journal of Religion & Society, Volume 7 (2005).

I started this group on campus because young adults should be free to explore who they are with intellectual honesty and without concern that other people will think he or she is likely to become a social deviant just because of a lack of belief. It does not seem to matter what a person believes in as long as he or she believes in something supernatural; if not, they cannot be trusted.

Finally, Mr. Terry suggests that without the hope of a life after this that we are hopeless and unable or unwilling to help those around us. Mr. Terry, how do you account for all those atheists in foxholes like Specialist Jeremy Hall who is receiving harassment and threats of harm from other soldiers and even officers in his company because he dared to establish a community of soldiers who are atheists. I would like to point out one thing: if this life is all you have then it is more special, not less. That includes our families, neighbors, and everyone we interact with.

It is time that atheists “come out of the closet” and claim our right to be here in this country that was founded on the concept of freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Mr. Terry, we are not going anywhere, and soon there will be a lot more of us; it would be more beneficial to find our common ground and work together to build a better society. In reality, atheism should not be much of a threat to anyone. We do not seek to convert anyone to atheism; we mainly offer those freethinkers out there a place of community. We could not convert you any more than you could convert us to religion; all we want is our rightful place of respect in our communities.
Thank you,
Kevin Metcalf

The following letter was written by Bill Harter:

***
An Open Letter to UAF Chancellor and Fayetteville Citizens

It is a duty of UAF faculty to anticipate potential threats to
minority students. In light of recent incidents at Delaware and
Virginia Tech, I must consider a 9/22/07 article in the NWA Times as
such. I would be unable to forgive myself if injury were to come to
students under my care when it could have been avoided. All
Fayetteville and UAF leaders surely feel similarly.

A Times columnist, Mr. Terry, wrote words that threaten some of the
very best students (as well as faculty) at the UAF when he said that
members of atheist minorities were likely to become pedophiles,
murderers, or "any other deviant you can think of" with "no concern
for... people or things around (them)."

This comes after a new UAF club named ?Occam?s Razors? was founded
and received coverage this past week in the Arkansas Traveler. As club
faculty advisor, I share concern about such hateful rhetoric with the
club president and UAF law student, Kevin B. Metcalf. Mr. Metcalf is a
former federal counter-terrorism law enforcement officer.

Mr. Metcalf and I were quite surprised by the number, diversity, and
quality of students who signed up for ?Occam?s Razors? and an informal
straw poll revealed that atheists accounted for over 80% of the
membership of about thirty students. That is about the same percentage
as the number of atheists in the National Academy of Sciences,
although only about half our members are actually science majors.

Stated simply, we want to protect these wonderfully bright and
thoughtful students and are seeking your help.

Fayetteville and the University will remain a haven of diversity and
free thought only if its population is not threatened by ignorance and
bigotry. The Terry screed goes well beyond 1st amendment free-press
rights and into the realm of shouting ?Fire? in a crowded theatre.

The shooting in Virginia involved a student who had untreated
psychiatric problems and was unable to think clearly or make rational
decisions. Incendiary remarks like those in Terry?s editorial may have
the potential to move someone to action where normally they would not
have acted. Insinuating that atheists are potential pedophiles,
murders, thieves, or other kinds of deviants could easily provoke an
irrational response in certain people. Such insinuations are wrong,
particularly, since there is absolutely no evidence to support such
claims.

Our students need to be free from inflammatory rhetoric that might
incite an unbalanced zealot or a zealous (or jealous) student mob to
mayhem. Club meetings are widely advertised and free for all. It
should not become necessary (as it has in parts of the Middle-East) to
hire a bodyguard at a university simply because one is engaged in
critical study or thinking.

Therefore, I would ask that all Fayetteville and UAF officers to
reconsider security issues. This should begin by asking the NWA Times
editor Greg B. Harton and columnist John Terry to account for their
intentions and intended readership and to apologize to our students
and faculty.

Unless the Times can back up what they publish they should refrain
from using such incendiary remarks. In these times, perhaps more than
ever before, the potential for inciting violence in issues relating to
religion must be carefully considered before publishing them.

Dr. William G. Harter
Professor of Physics

DOUG
I wrote a response to Terry's hate-filled article. The newspaper called to confirm that they'll be publishing my letter this week.

DAR
Here is my letter:

***
John Terry in his 9/22/07 column "A solemn and sad situation" informs us of three dangers of atheism. The first two are too silly to bother with but the third one is pure bigotry. He says one who does not recognize God "may not recognize any of the restraints that a belief in God generates." Really? Do the religious people around the world, the really hardcore true believers, strike you as restrained? Does he watch the news? What was he doing on 9/11/01?

He continues: "Thus, without restraint, he [the unbeliever] may become a pedophile, a murderer, a thief, or any other kind of a deviant you can think of."

When I write a letter to the editor I am asked for references to back up my claims. Mr. Terry doesn't even pretend to give any evidence for this obnoxious charge. Is there any other group Mr. Terry could have gotten away with making such a baseless and vile claim about? I doubt it. I guess we should we be be thankful he forgot to throw in bestiality and "torturing babies for fun."

He then teases us with: "There are tragic examples of such people" but doesn't take the time to give us an example, never mind actually doing the work of showing that such behavior is in any way caused by a lack of belief in God. What Mr. Terry is really trying to suggest is that belief in God leads to better moral results in a society.

The Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, examined this question and published this in 2005:

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion..."

When Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, "compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy he concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional." He found that Britain performed better but the "disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries."

It's conclusion: “The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.
The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

Source:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 571206.ece

This letter by James Allen was published today:

http://www.nwarktimes.com/nwat/Editorial/57595/

Letters to the editor
Northwest Arkansas Times
Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007

A platform from which to hate

On Saturday, Sept. 22, the Northwest Arkansas Times published an opinion piece by John Terry entitled " A solemn and sad situation" in which he suggests that an atheist is likely to become " a pedophile, a murderer, a thief, or any other kind of a deviant you can think of. " It is absurd that such a statement should even have to be addressed — but given that it was published in the most highly circulated paper in the region, it demands it. Mr. Terry attempts to wrap his brain around the idea of a passionate atheist, and then proceeds to give one of the most excellent examples I have ever seen of why so many of us are becoming more vocal.

Atheists are the most reviled group of citizens in this country. A recent study from the University of Minnesota (one of those darned secular universities ) found that " Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians, and other minority groups in " sharing their vision of American society. " Knowing how many Americans feel about Muslims and homosexuals, it is pretty scary to see us ranked below them. It is the casual bigotry of people like Mr. Terry — who don't even have the decency to be ashamed — that gets to us. He is the reason we are becoming so passionate.

The fact is, as a group, the percentage of the incarcerated who are atheists is far lower than the percentage of atheists as a whole. America is the most Christian nation in the world, and has never been more so. Yet our economy is crashing around us, poverty and teen pregnancy are on the rise, and we have the largest percentage of citizens imprisoned of any country in the world. And regarding the outrageous claim I quoted to begin this response, I would hope that, as a minister himself, Mr. Terry would remember Matthew 7: 3: " Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye ?" In a society that prides itself on the freedom of the press and the freedom of speech (to say nothing of the freedom of religion so many assume applies only to their own ), it is important to remember the responsibility we citizens share in not abusing those rights. Mr. Terry has overstepped the bounds of that responsibility, as is also his right. But it saddens and frightens me that an esteemed publication such as the Northwest Arkansas Times would give him a platform from which to spread his hatred.

James Allen

***
DAR
He has a pretty nifty web-log here: http://jdallen.org/

Darrel wrote:This letter by James Allen was published today:

http://www.nwarktimes.com/nwat/Editorial/57595/

Letters to the editor
Northwest Arkansas Times
Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007

A platform from which to hate

On Saturday, Sept. 22, the Northwest Arkansas Times published an opinion piece by John Terry entitled " A solemn and sad situation" in which he suggests that an atheist is likely to become " a pedophile, a murderer, a thief, or any other kind of a deviant you can think of. " It is absurd that such a statement should even have to be addressed — but given that it was published in the most highly circulated paper in the region, it demands it. Mr. Terry attempts to wrap his brain around the idea of a passionate atheist, and then proceeds to give one of the most excellent examples I have ever seen of why so many of us are becoming more vocal.

Atheists are the most reviled group of citizens in this country. A recent study from the University of Minnesota (one of those darned secular universities ) found that " Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians, and other minority groups in " sharing their vision of American society. " Knowing how many Americans feel about Muslims and homosexuals, it is pretty scary to see us ranked below them. It is the casual bigotry of people like Mr. Terry — who don't even have the decency to be ashamed — that gets to us. He is the reason we are becoming so passionate.

The fact is, as a group, the percentage of the incarcerated who are atheists is far lower than the percentage of atheists as a whole. America is the most Christian nation in the world, and has never been more so. Yet our economy is crashing around us, poverty and teen pregnancy are on the rise, and we have the largest percentage of citizens imprisoned of any country in the world. And regarding the outrageous claim I quoted to begin this response, I would hope that, as a minister himself, Mr. Terry would remember Matthew 7: 3: " Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye ?" In a society that prides itself on the freedom of the press and the freedom of speech (to say nothing of the freedom of religion so many assume applies only to their own ), it is important to remember the responsibility we citizens share in not abusing those rights. Mr. Terry has overstepped the bounds of that responsibility, as is also his right. But it saddens and frightens me that an esteemed publication such as the Northwest Arkansas Times would give him a platform from which to spread his hatred.

James Allen

***
DAR
He has a pretty nifty web-log here: http://jdallen.org/

They credited me as "James Allen / Bentonville", which is correct, but it is also the name of the Bentonville Police Chief. I can imagine that might make for an unfortunate case of mistaken identity in this case.

JD Allen wrote:They credited me as "James Allen / Bentonville", which is correct, but it is also the name of the Bentonville Police Chief. I can imagine that might make for an unfortunate case of mistaken identity in this case.

Wow. As I read through that letter, I thought it was very, very well written and wondered who this "James Allen" fellow was. I didn't make the connection. So glad to see that we have him here already! Kudos to you, JD.

As I posted on your website, excellent LTE James.

However you wrote:
"It is absurd that such a statement should even have to be addressed — but given that it was published in the most highly circulated paper in the region, it demands it."

Last time I checked the numbers The Morning News had the highest circulation in the NWA area. That was two years ago but at that time TMN had a circulation of 36,000 and Northwest Ark Times had 5,000. True the Times is now enclosed inside it's mother paper, Ark Democrat-Gazette, but TMN has twice the circulation of ADG.
LW

LaWood wrote:As I posted on your website, excellent LTE James.

However you wrote:
"It is absurd that such a statement should even have to be addressed — but given that it was published in the most highly circulated paper in the region, it demands it."

Last time I checked the numbers The Morning News had the highest circulation in the NWA area. That was two years ago but at that time TMN had a circulation of 36,000 and Northwest Ark Times had 5,000. True the Times is now enclosed inside it's mother paper, Ark Democrat-Gazette, but TMN has twice the circulation of ADG.
LW

Oops. Well, I guess it doesn't matter. They don't seem to have much concern for the facts anyway.

"The second danger is that the atheist may be able to persuade others (I knew of one situation like this where an older man concentrated on young people ) that his unbelief is really true."
I have never encountered an atheist trying to convert anyone. In view of the statistics referenced here, it's time we start!

Well, their "lord" knows just how many older christian men (and not just RCs, although they get the most press) have been concentrating on youngsters - for various reasons.

Marty wrote:"The second danger is that the atheist may be able to persuade others (I knew of one situation like this where an older man concentrated on young people ) that his unbelief is really true."
I have never encountered an atheist trying to convert anyone. In view of the statistics referenced here, it's time we start!

Taking Marty's observation and running with it a bit, what does Terry think goes on in churches, anyway? There's Sunday School for children young enough to lack the cognitive skills to think about the bullshit they're being spoon-fed. What do churches do in the summer when the children aren't doing real learning in school? Vacation Bible School. If it's so terrible that older people are trying to persuade others, especially young people, Terry should look at... well:

John Terry of Siloam Springs is an economist, minister and veteran.

... himself.
The flaming hypocrisy of the rightwing nutjobs rears its ugly head once again...

DAR
Too good. A four minute Bible lesson on pedophilia in the Bible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuPRN6svUds

We'll play this at the meeting.

Bill Harter's letter was published in Sunday's paper:

***
Fayetteville Don't allow inflammatory words

It is a duty of University of Arkansas faculty to anticipate potential threats to minority students. In light of recent incidents at Delaware and Virginia Tech, I must regard a Sept. 22, 2007, column in the Northwest Arkansas Times as such. I would be unable to forgive myself if injury were to come to students under my care when it could have been avoided. All Fayetteville and UA leaders surely feel similarly. A Times columnist, John Terry, wrote words that threaten some of the very best students (as well as faculty ) at the UA when he said that members of atheist minorities were likely to become pedophiles, murderers, or " any other deviant you can think of" with " no concern for... people or things around (them ). " This comes after a new UA club named Occam's Razors was founded and received coverage this past week in the Arkansas Traveler. As club faculty advisor, I share concern about such hateful rhetoric with the club president and UA law student, Kevin B. Metcalf. Metcalf is a former federal counter-terrorism law enforcement officer.

Mr. Metcalf and I were quite surprised by the number, diversity, and quality of students who signed up for Occam's Razors and an informal straw poll revealed that atheists accounted for more than 80 percent of the membership of about 30 students. That is about the same percentage as that of atheists in the National Academy of Sciences, although only about half our members are actually science majors.

Stated simply, we want to protect these wonderfully bright and thoughtful students.

Fayetteville and the university will remain a haven of diversity and free thought only if its population is not threatened by ignorance and bigotry. The Terry screed goes well beyond First Amendment free-press rights and into the realm of shouting " fire " in a crowded theater.

The shooting in Virginia involved a student who had untreated psychiatric problems and was unable to... make rational decisions. Incendiary remarks like those in Terry's column may have the potential to move someone to action.... Insinuating that atheists are potential pedophiles, murders, thieves, or other kinds of deviants could easily provoke an irrational response in certain people. Such insinuations are wrong, particularly, since there is absolutely no evidence to support such claims.
Our students need to be free from inflammatory rhetoric that might incite an unbalanced zealot or a zealous (or jealous ) student mob to mayhem. Club meetings are widely advertised and free for all. It should not become necessary (as it has in parts of the Middle-East ) to hire a bodyguard at a university simply because one is engaged in critical study or thinking. Therefore, I would ask all Fayetteville and UA officers to reconsider security issues. This should begin by asking the Northwest Arkansas Times editor Greg Harton and columnist John Terry to account for their intentions and intended readership and to apologize to our students and faculty. Unless the Times can back up what they publish they should refrain from using such incendiary remarks.

William Harter

LINK

Doug's letter was published in Sunday's paper:

***
Atheists misunderstood

The recent column from [John ] Terry of Siloam Springs on the subject of atheism displays many of the common misconceptions about nonbelievers. Mr. Terry says that atheists make themselves into their own gods, that they cannot be passionate about things, and — one of the three " dangers" that Terry sees with atheism — the nonbeliever has no moral restraints and may become a pedophile, a thief, or some such criminal.
In fact, atheists do not consider themselves gods. They are often passionate about many things, and by a wide margin they have a disproportionately low representation in prisons, suggesting either that they commit fewer crimes than other religious demographic groups or that they are less likely to be caught breaking the law. I suspect it is the former. I have met hundreds of professed atheists and they tend to be a very intelligent, friendly, and law-abiding crowd. Perhaps Mr. Terry would like to visit a local skeptics meeting where many atheists are in attendance and see how his stereotypes are mistaken. The Fayetteville Freethinkers meet every last Saturday of the month in the Fayetteville Public Library at 2 p. m. All are welcome.

Doug Krueger

http://www.nwarktimes.com/nwat/Editorial/57731/

Here is a (very long) blog post listing point by point maybe a hundred or so things that atheists have to be angry about

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta ... nd-an.html

JD Allen wrote:Here is a (very long) blog post listing point by point maybe a hundred or so things that atheists have to be angry about

DAR
Wow James, that one is so good it really deserves a thread of it's own. I would edit about 1/3 of it out and then it would be perfect. It could all by itself be a basis of a presentation at a meeting.