fayfreethinkers.com

If you haven't heard of the Blasphemy Challenge here it is:

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The Rational Response Squad is giving away 1001 DVDs of The God Who Wasn't There, the hit documentary that the Los Angeles Times calls "provocative -- to put it mildly."

There's only one catch: We want your soul.

It's simple. You record a short message damning yourself to Hell, you upload it to YouTube, and then the Rational Response Squad will send you a free The God Who Wasn't There DVD. It's that easy.
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Check out this hilarious Catholic response:

Making Fool's For Satan

6/16/2007 - 6:00 AM PST

By Fr. Robert J. Carr
Catholic Online

One of the more disturbing aspects of living the faith, is discovering those who feel that they can never be forgiven for their sins. Unfortunately, this is far more common than one might believe. It seems strange that the God who gave everything he had so that we could be saved, the one who forgave even those who killed him, would hold grudges. Yet, many people believe that and to some it has devastating affects. This is because they believe they are outside God's mercy. They are essentially, in their own mind, walking condemned expecting to enter Hell when they die. Many are joyful to learn that God is not this grudge holding monster, unlike some more unhappy humans we may meet in our lives.

One of the first cases I ever experienced of this phenomenon, and this as a layperson, is the case of a man who several decades earlier used magic to put a curse on a then supervisor. The following day, his boss died of a heart attack. It is mostly likely that this was a coincidence. Those Catholics involved in deliverance ministry who are versed in the aspects of the occult inform me that curses of this type are very hard to complete.

Yet, this kind of scenario, the person who does something incredibly stupid at a young age and feels condemned for the rest of his life, unable to be forgiven is one that is being perpetuated on the young and the naïve. It is called the Blasphemy Challenge.

The brainchild of the Rational Response Squad an organization that claims to be on an anti-Christian mission that promotes atheism is actually either accidentally or purposely promoting a more demonic cause. This makes them poor atheists. The Blasphemy Challenge simply asks those who participate in it to condemn their souls to Hell by uttering blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This mission, which is based on a misinterpretation of the Mark 3:29, has claimed hundreds of adherents who do this incredibly stupid act in response for a DVD of the video "The God Who Was Not There."

The problem is that the process which claims to promote atheism among our youth, actually does not, it promotes the demonic. Further, a true atheist would never condemn his soul to Hell. Why? Because to condemn one’s soul to Hell is to acknowledge that Hell exists and a true atheist would never do that. This highlights the thinking process of the adherents to the Blasphemy Challenge. It also opens those who do so to the demonic as they continue on their lives blissfully ignorant of the reality of evil.

This brings up a practical question. Would you hire someone who took the Blasphemy Challenge? Here is why I ask.

The key to the Blasphemy Challenge is that someone commits the act and receives a DVD of the movie, "The God Who Was Not There." Now if you buy the video, it costs less than $25.00. However, buying one gets you condemned as a chicken by the Rational Response Squad. So essentially you are selling your soul and the right to not be called chicken for $25.00. Don’t ask me what is rational about this. It does not make any sense to me. Granted the soul may be worthless in the eyes of the blasphemer, but is not so in the eyes of others. So, would you hire someone whose concept of finances is so bad that they would actually sell their soul for less than $25.00? Now we would say that we would never sell our soul, that means that the value we put on one is priceless. When someone offers something that has a value of priceless for $25.00, is that the kind of person whom you would want working for your company, if you believe in adding value to your product?

The second issue has to do with the lack of critical thinking. As I said before, a true atheist would never commit such an act. If such people are so easily led down a false path with this bizarre reasoning, how much more easily can they be led down other paths. Putting this in a more secular manner of understanding, if you could get them to buy a video that costs less than $25.00, and is worth almost one hundred percent less, for the cost of one's own soul, what would they pay for your deed to the Brooklyn Bridge that just came into your hands through the head of finances for the Enfield, Massachusetts Brooklyn Bridge Deed Management Company. You just have to send all your life’s savings to a bank account in Nigeria and you will send you the deed in the mail. Then you can sell it for billions, of course, recouping all your life savings and then some. They promise it works.

I think you get my drift.

Actually, the deal they made was truly with the Devil, for I guarantee you that many years from now there will be some, maybe not a majority, who feel that the atheism thing is no more than a false religion, but they are stuck with it because of this act. They will believe, falsely, that they are outside of God’s salvation unable to be saved for one stupid act they did at another time. They were misinformed in this deal and they sold themselves short. But they chose to exchange the truth for a lie and to buy into the lie for a virtually worthless video. What really scares me about this Blasphemy Challenge is the case of the person who decides that if he is going to Hell for all eternity, or will cease to exist, why not go bring that result now and then attempts suicide. Those people are out there as well.

When people try to convince some of these blasphemers in the future who sold their souls for a $25.00 DVD—that is not worth $25.00—(and the right not to be called chicken) that their act was meaningless and is not binding in the eyes of God, hopefully those who went into despair will listen. For if they don’t, they will never realize just how much their act was silly and just how worthless that movie truly is. Yet, is not that just how the Devil works? Hence, the reason we can say that even a true Atheist has far more wisdom than the fools who partook of the Blasphemy Challenge.

If you want to see who took the Blasphemy Challenge, simply go here

This is so devoid of understanding that I can't pick a place to begin listing the things wrong with it.

Please, Father Carr, don't bitch about a lack of critical thinking when it's clear that you -- but not your targets -- suffer from that malady.

DAR
Seems friar Carr is so flabbergasted to find there are non-believers who care so little about his precious beliefs about souls that they will toss it all away for a DVD. Since there is nothing he can do about this situation he tries, in this craftily worded jumble of illogic, to go after them in an old tried and true way: don't hire them. Punish them economically.
I wish his column had a spot for comments. I would gladly roast the daylights out of him there. I thought catholics were a little smarter than this.

D.

Father Carr is being quite logical within his own framework. Only within his own framework, which is why you guys outside his framework think he's totally illogical and/or nuts. Since he believes in the soul and sees the soul as being priceless, the idea that someone would trade it for a DVD that would cost them $25 or less to buy is absolutely appalling. Worse than selling your birthright for "a mess of pottage" - and he really wouldn't trust the financial or other judgement of those who do it. (Give the guy a break, he absolves the true atheist from demonism, which you know many a religious zealot does not.) Because of what he believes, he cannot see the "dare" of selling the soul for a DVD in the same light as a "dare" to step on a crack to prove that it doesn't break your mother's back.

Certain aetheists understand an important truth that the Bible teaches.
The word hell as we know it is not even a word in the Bible. The word some versions render Hell (eternal torment) is Geenna which literally means "the ever-burning trash heap".

The valley of Geenna was the place the trash was thrown over the city
wall-- it was constantly on fire- and smelled pretty awful (as you can imagine).

Also- during the Monarchy of Israel, children were sacrificed there.
You need to remember that the earliest Christians were Jews. As Jews-
or as proselytes to Judaism, they most certainly would have been familiar
with the Holy City and its environs- including the city dump.

False prophets and Churches even today use peoples ignorance to their advantage by stating that you are going to go to hell (eternal torment), if you don't make penance/payments to the church for forgiveness of your sins. Any church that does this is surely not a Church teaching the ways of Christ. Surely Satan you could say has deceived many. The Bible clearly teaches that God doesn't require these things.

Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifices and offerings are not what please you; gifts and payment for sin are not what you demand. But you made me willing to listen and obey".

The only people who believe this nonsense about a loving God eternally tormenting people clearly have not taken the time to study the scriptures.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isa 30:12 Now this is the answer of the holy God of Israel: "You rejected my message, and you trust in violence and lies.
Jer 7:8 But just look at what is happening! You put your trust in worthless lies.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
2Th 3:5 But the Lord directs your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ.
Jer 17:5 Thus saith your Creator: Cursed is the man that confideth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from your God.
Jer 11:3 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant.


Pitzer College sociologist Phil Zuckerman compiled country-by-country survey, polling and census numbers relating to atheism, agnosticism, disbelief in God and people who state they are non-religious or have no religious preference. These data were published in the chapter titled "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns" in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005). In examining various indicators of societal health, Zuckerman concludes about suicide:

Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. It is interesting to note, however, that of the top remaining nine nations leading the world in male suicide rates, all are former Soviet/Communist nations, such as Belarus, Ukraine, and Latvia. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism.

It is important to keep in mind that atheism and agnosticism have no inherent proscription against suicide, so higher rates of suicide among agnostics and atheists should in no way be considered a failure of these belief systems. Indeed, compassionate tolerance for suicide and euthenasia are widely regarded as hallmarks of many secular societies.

FSC wrote: Is hell even a real word in the Bible?

DAR
Well, yes. But they didn't write the english word "hell" obviously because we deal with translations. The Bible wasn't written in english.

FSC
Certain aetheists understand an important truth that the Bible teaches.
The word hell as we know it is not even a word in the Bible. The word some versions render Hell (eternal torment) is Geenna which literally means "the ever-burning trash heap".

DAR
That's just one. There are four words commonly translated as hell in the Bible. Consider (wiki had a nice list of them):

Sheol
In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term sheol is translated as hell 31 times.[9] However Sheol was translated as "grave" 31 times.[10] Sheol is also translated as pit three times.[11]

Gehenna
In the New Testament of the KJV, Gehenna is always translated as Hell[12]

Hades
The KJV translates Hades as Hell 10 times,[13] and as grave once.[14] Hades is traditionally the Greek word used to mean sheol.

Tartarus
The KJV translates tartarus, which appears only in II Pet. 2:4, as Hell.

FSC
False prophets and Churches even today use peoples ignorance to their advantage by stating that you are going to go to hell (eternal torment), if you don't make penance/payments to the church for forgiveness of your sins. Any church that does this is surely not a Church teaching the ways of Christ. Surely Satan you could say has deceived many. The Bible clearly teaches that God doesn't require these things.

DAR
Not so clearly. My religious training/background was that the Bible teaches there is no consciousness or existence after death, only the possiblity of resurrection. Therefore, no conscious hell. This seems to be your position. I think that's too simple. I think the Bible is confused, not at all clear, and this why there is such a diversity opinion among sincere Bible believers. What happens, in my opinion is those that don't want to believe in a hell, for whatever reason (it's pretty absurd) choose to emphasize the verses supporting their belief and ignoring the ones that contradict it. The other side does the same.

FSC
The only people who believe this nonsense about a loving God eternally tormenting people clearly have not taken the time to study the scriptures.

DAR
They would say the same about you. There are many verses supporting their position. Here are few of them. These make no sense if there is no hell. Excerpted from my book "The Perfect Mirror":

***
27. Scriptures affirming some form of afterlife

This first example clearly informs us that the soul
exists separate from the body and is not destroyed with
the destruction of the body.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28 also
Luke 12:4-5

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus tells
of a man who dies and yet remains in a state of very
conscious torment. If the dead are "conscious of nothing
at all," using such an example would be misleading,
inaccurate and absurd.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was
carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich
man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up
his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said,
Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool
my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (27) ...
send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren;
that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into
this place of torment. Luke 16:22-24,27-28.

The dead are often spoken of as "gnashing their teeth,"
an act entirely inconsistent with non-existence (or
unconsciousness).
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into
outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth. Matt. 8:12

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they
shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a
furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of
teeth...So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels
shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the
just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:41-
42, 49-50 see also Matt. 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and
all the prophets, in the kingdom of god, and you
yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:... And these shall
go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal. Matt. 25:41, 46.

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for
thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to
go into hell, into the fire that never shall be
quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire
is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it
off:... [verse 47, "eyes" etc] Mark 9:43-45

...If any man worship the beast and his image, and
receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The
same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the
Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up
for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor
night, who worship the beast and his image... Rev.
14:9-11

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the
lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false
prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night
for ever and ever... And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire. Rev. 20:10, 15.

FCS
2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

DAR
I have a little problem with the idea that the Lord wishes "all should come to repentance." There are just too many examples of the Lord trying to make sure people do perish and don't come to repentance. A few examples:

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy... Therefore
hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and
whom he will he hardeneth. Rom. 9:16,18

And for this cause God shall send them strong
delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all
might be damned who believed not the truth...
2 Thess. 2:11-12

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart;
that they should not see with their eyes, nor
understand with their heart, and be converted,
and I should heal them. John 12:40

He answered and said unto them, Because it is
given unto you to know the mysteries of the
kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (17)
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and
righteous men have desired to see those things which
ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those
things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matt. 13:11, 17

...Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the
kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all
these things are done in parables: That seeing they
may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may
hear, and not understand; lest at any time they
should be converted, and their sins should be
forgiven them. Mark 4:11-12

D.
----------------------------
"The Catholic Church has a strong sanction against suicide because the view of life taught by the priests, in time, causes great dispair."
--Glen A. Dahlquist

FSC wrote:It is important to keep in mind that atheism and agnosticism have no inherent proscription against suicide,

DOUG
And that Christianity is based on suicide, namely, the suicide of Jesus, which is the godly plan. Jesus led the perfect life, and this perfect life ended in his suicide. And aren't we supposed to be more like Jesus? So presumably, we should want to arrange to have ourselves executed for crimes we did not commit. Interesting.

Jesus planned on being killed. that's suicide. Jesus, according to scriptures, offered no defense to allegedly false charges, and had intentionally travelled into an area where he presumably knew he would be arrested and killed. Jesus and God planned this suicide out in the garden of Gethsemane. Knowing that you will be killed if you go somewhere, and in fact planning on it, basing your life on it, is to endorse suicide.

Jesus didn't want to do it, but God insisted. Jesus asked him to change his mind. Twice (Mark 14). God even had to send an angel to strenghten Jesus, lest he cop out (Luke 22:43). But eventually Jesus agreed to the suicide.

So in a religion founded on suicide, I would say FSC has little room to talk.

FSC wrote: so higher rates of suicide among agnostics and atheists should in no way be considered a failure of these belief systems. Indeed, compassionate tolerance for suicide and euthenasia are widely regarded as hallmarks of many secular societies.

DOUG
a. Drawing an inference from a society's degree of religiosity to its rate of suicide, and suggesting a causal relationship from that, is absurd. One could do the same with regard to religious areas: it is true that the highest divorce rates in the U.S. are in the southern states with the highest level of Christian belief. On your view, one should conclude that Christianity causes divorce.
b. On your view, since the U.S. has the highest level of Christian belief in the industrialized world, AND the highest murder rate, one should conclude that Christianity causes murder.
c. On FSC's logic, since the U.S. has the highest level of religious belief among modernized nations, AND the highest rate of automobile ownership, one should conclude that Christianity causes automobile ownership. Clearly, absurd logic. On order to show a causal relationship, you have to show more than a mere correlation.
d. And is there a correlation? Hardly. See here for a chart of suicide rates, with some countries such as the Netherlands having virtually NO religious belief and having a lower suicide rate than the U.S. The U.S. is #46 out of 100, with the higher rates being the lower numbers. The Netherlands are #51, with a lower suicide rate.

Kyrgyzstan, a secular state, a former Soviet state in which atheism was encouraged, has a lower rate than the U.S.

"Hardly any Turkmens can admit to have read the Koran, let alone live their lives according to Islamic traditions," says the Wikipedia here, largely due to the anti-religious practices under the Soviets, but Turkmenistan has a lower suicide rate than the U.S. and less religion.

Religious belief in Spain is lower than that of the U.S., yet it has a lower suicide rate.

43% of Jews in Israel consider themselves secular Jews. Yet their suicide rate is lower than that of the U.S.

The United Kingdom has less religious belief, and a lower suicide rate.

Need other examples?

My religious training/background was that the Bible teaches there is no consciousness or existence after death, only the possiblity of resurrection. Therefore, no conscious hell. This seems to be your position. I think that's too simple. I think the Bible is confused, not at all clear, and this why there is such a diversity opinion among sincere Bible believers. What happens, in my opinion is those that don't want to believe in a hell, for whatever reason (it's pretty absurd) choose to emphasize the verses supporting their belief and ignoring the ones that contradict it. The other side does the same.

First of all its important to read the scriptures with regard to their overall context. When people are trying to interpret symbolism or parables literally this can become a source of some major confusion. Remember, Abraham is dead. And you even said it yourself... the Bible teaches that once your dead your literally dead, Ecclesiastes 9:5. Dust to Dust etc... So how can Abraham be in heaven if he's dead?, apparently its just a story or maybe even a parable. Its important to use logic and reasoning when reading the scriptures. In all honesty none of them really made a whole lot of sense to me until i started studying Greek and Hebrew and then doing minor translations myself.... on parts i had trouble understanding. Cast not your pearls before swine lest they trample them. Now if the swine is willing to do the research itself now thats a little different, it shows devotion. Time is the most precious gift you can give anyone, including our Creator.

When you say that believing our bodies are literally dead after we die is "too simple", what do you mean?

To me its quite clear that when we die we are literally dead. Its over. There's no spirit that leaves the body to walk the ether, theres no ascension to heaven or the judgement of hell hammered down upon us, theres nothing.... just death.... nothingness, an infinite state of dreamless sleep you could say. Do you really even remotely believe that after we die our soul or spirit continues to live forever? or something of that sort. The soul is useless without the body. Once our bodies are gone our souls are gone with them. Soul is literally translated breath or life, when God brings us to life he blows into us the breath of life or living soul. If He can do it once surely he can do it again.

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above him For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.

Rev 16:3 And the second poured out his bowl on the sea; and it became blood, as of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea.

Isa 29:8 It shall even be as when the hungry dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; and he awaketh, and his soul is empty; or as when the thirsty dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; and he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul craveth: so shall the multitude of all the nations be that war against mount Zion.

And that Christianity is based on suicide, namely, the suicide of Jesus

Doug your absolutely right, Christianity did in a way form because of suicide.

Adams suicide!

Adam willingly chose to die, he literally killed himsel in the Garden of Eden after Eve partook of the Fruit. Eve was fooled... she didn't know for sure that after eating from the tree she would surely die. Satan took advantage of her naivety and for all we know Satan might have even believed she would live too, but we can't deny his motives weren't selfish.

As for Adam..... Adam knew the truth, God told him exactly what would happen if he ate of the tree. He knew he would surely die. He just chose selfishly not to live without Eve because he knew she was already dead because she partook of the fruit. He willingly killed himself, thats suicide...Its just like he cut his own wrist the second he bit into the fruit.

Christ (2nd Adam) on the other hand died for us, he died willingly but not selfishly for himself, for us. Thats an unselfish motive. If a father wiilingly dies to save his child is that considered suicide? So Christ died to save the world, thats not suicide that's righteousness.

Get your facts straight

FSC wrote:When people are trying to interpret symbolism or parables literally this can become a source of some major confusion. Remember, Abraham is dead.

DAR
Yes, but this begs the question. What does "dead" mean. The vast majority of christians belief that when you are dead, you are still alive via an immortal soul. They have some biblical support for this. I gave several verses above.

FSC
And you even said it yourself... the Bible teaches that once your dead your literally dead, Ecclesiastes 9:5. Dust to Dust etc...

DAR
Yes it does. The Hebrew scriptures are quite consistent in not having a soul or an afterlife. No one in the OT dies and goes to heaven. The Christian NT is different. I provided many verses showing that the NT teaches some kind of conscious afterlife and a soul.

FSC
So how can Abraham be in heaven if he's dead?,

DAR
Many if not most Christians think that is where they will go when they are "dead" and they get this idea from their Bible.

FSC
apparently its just a story or maybe even a parable.

DAR
Then it is an extremely misleading and even dishonest story/parable that makes no sense.

FSC
Its important to use logic and reasoning when reading the scriptures.

DAR
I agree.

FSC
When you say that believing our bodies are literally dead after we die is "too simple", what do you mean?

DAR
I mean the claim, your claim, that the Bible only teaches that when we are dead we are truly dead, gone, non-existent is too simple and ignores the many scriptures that disagree and led in fact the majority of Christianity to believe otherwise. You said:

"The only people who believe this nonsense about a loving God eternally tormenting people clearly have not taken the time to study the scriptures."

DAR
That's too simplistic. I shared many of the standard verses that make no sense if there is no literal hell. There are many sincere Bible believing Christians that come down on both sides of this issue. The reason is, the Bible, as on so many other issues (all the biggies in fact) is confused and contradictory. This is why you will find sincere Bible believing Christians coming down on both sides of every moral question we face.

To me its quite clear that when we die we are literally dead. Its over. There's no spirit that leaves the body...

DAR
Then this verse makes no sense:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 10:28 also Luke 12:4-5

This clearly shows the Bible claims the existence of a soul and a dichotomy between body and soul. I agree the OT does not teach a body separate from soul and this is something very different from the NT but this shouldn't be surprising since we find the Hebrew scriptures differ on a lot of other issues as well. Religions constantly change/adapt and borrow. When the NT christians created their new religion they borrowed what they wanted from jewish tradition and made up a lot of new stuff. Mormons have just taken it one step forward. Standard religious recycling.

Do you really even remotely believe that after we die our soul or spirit continues to live forever?

DAR
No. I don't believe in a spirit, soul or afterlife of any kind.

D.

FSC wrote:

And that Christianity is based on suicide, namely, the suicide of Jesus

Doug your absolutely right, Christianity did in a way form because of suicide.

Adams suicide!

Get the marshmallows.

FSC wrote: Adam willingly chose to die, he literally killed himsel in the Garden of Eden after Eve partook of the Fruit. Eve was fooled... she didn't know for sure that after eating from the tree she would surely die. Satan took advantage of her naivety and for all we know Satan might have even believed she would live too, but we can't deny his motives weren't selfish.

You speak as if these events are historical. Do you have any evidence that these events actually took place? Are you even aware that the Biblical account is anonymous? Who wrote this stuff down? When was it written? Why in the world should anyone believe it, especially since we have hard scientific evidence that the Biblical account of the creation of the world and the creation of human beings are false?

FSC wrote: As for Adam..... Adam knew the truth, God told him exactly what would happen if he ate of the tree. He knew he would surely die. He just chose selfishly not to live without Eve because he knew she was already dead because she partook of the fruit. He willingly killed himself, thats suicide...Its just like he cut his own wrist the second he bit into the fruit.

Christ (2nd Adam) on the other hand died for us, he died willingly but not selfishly for himself, for us. Thats an unselfish motive. If a father wiilingly dies to save his child is that considered suicide? So Christ died to save the world, thats not suicide that's righteousness.

Get your facts straight.

DOUG
I have the facts straight. The Biblical origins stories are myth. That much is known.

You can't even get your myth straight. Nowhere does the Adam and Eve myth suggest that Adam dies willingly. Nor does it say anywhere that they could have understood what death is. Who had ever died? No one. Even the animals did not each each other, according to the creationists. All the lions and tigers were vegetarians. Nothing had died. So how would they have known what death is?

In addition, according to the myth, Adam and Eve could not know that they had done anything wrong. God had created them so that they did not know the difference between good and evil. They were told not to eat of the fruit, but they had no idea what it meant to disobey--or to die, for that matter. No one had ever disobeyed, just as nothing had ever died. So they could not have known that disobedience was evil. God says so:

Genesis 3:
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened[/b], and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

...21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

So, since God made Adam and Eve ignorant of what it meant to do evil, they were not aware that they were doing something wrong when they disobeyed. They didn't know good from evil until after they ate the magic fruit.

Maybe you need to get your myth straight. You wrote:

He just chose selfishly not to live without Eve because he knew she was already dead because she partook of the fruit. He willingly killed himself, thats suicide...Its just like he cut his own wrist the second he bit into the fruit.

But according to the myth, he did not know they were doing something wrong or that they knew what death was either. You are just making up that Adam knew that Eve was "dead." That is ridiculous. Nowhere does the story give any such indication.

In addition, since God did not want Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil, one might ask why this is. And if he didn't want them to know this, and they could not have known that eating the tree was a bad thing to do, why would God put a tree there that could give them this knowledge by magic powers?

If I had a child who was only 3, say, and I put a loaded gun in the room with her and said "Touching that device is deleterious to one's well-being," would it really be a defense on my part after the child picked up the gun and shot herself with it to say, "Hey, I warned her!"?

On the myth, God made Adam and Eve so that they could not know that eating the magic fruit was morally wrong. So God's punishing them for doing something out of ignorance only makes God clearly unjust. And punishing the descendants makes God look like a monster.

Other issues raised by the myth:

• Do you really think snakes eat dust, as the myth says? If you had a pet snake, would you just feed it dust?
  Do you think there is a tree now that if you eat its fruit, you become immortal, as stated in Genesis 3?
  Do you really think there are cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life, as stated in the myth?
  Do you believe snakes can talk? If so, what species was it? And why can't they talk now? Is it because of the dust?

If you don't believe these things, such as talking snakes, why believe the other things? If you do believe these things, explain why any rational person should believe that these things are true.

And I must also ask: If God's plan can be foiled by a mere serpent, what kind of pathetic, ill-conceived plan is it? Imagine if some general in Iraq had a plan to get rid of all the anti-American insurgents in one fell swoop. The tanks and humvees and helicopters are on the way to engage the enemy, but a goat crosses their path and the 6 whole batallions are slaughtered by the enemy. If the operation can be defeated by a goat, is the general who conceived the plan a good general? If the whole of God's entire plan can be screwed up right at the start, and all it took was a talking snake, it wasn't a very good plan, was it?

Then this verse makes no sense:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 10:28 also Luke 12:4-5

This clearly shows the Bible claims the existence of a soul and a dichotomy between body and soul. I agree the OT does not teach a body separate from soul and this is something very different from the NT but this shouldn't be surprising since we find the Hebrew scriptures differ on a lot of other issues as well. Religions constantly change/adapt and borrow. When the NT christians created their new religion they borrowed what they wanted from jewish tradition and made up a lot of new stuff. Mormons have just taken it one step forward. Standard religious recycling.

I think Matt. 10:28 makes perfect sense. I gave you what you need to understand it in my last reply. I was blessed with the knowledge through study.

The soul is useless without the body. Once our bodies are gone our souls are gone with them. Soul is literally translated breath or life, when God brings us to life he blows into us the breath of life or living soul. If He can do it once surely he can do it again.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell."

As we know from reading the scriptures when you die you are literally dead. Your body returns to the earth to become fertilizer. Another thing we know is the soul is useless without the body and vice versa. Body and soul are dependent upon each other. This is an important thing to understand. Its taught to us in Genesis. Christ new Genesis and so did the Jews of his day, those who don't are truly lost. If you have no foundation then how can you build the house?

The only Churches or people that teach the soul is independent of the body and each can function without the other are those that are led by a twisted distorted knowledge of the scripture, and usually this distorted knowledge leads them to what they believe is fianacial gain. "And it is not wonderful, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light" 2Co 11:14. Or maybe its just the ignorance of man, or his selfish nature "in which are some [things] difficult to be understood, which the untaught and unstable twist [fig., distort] to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of [the] Scriptures 2Pe 3:16.

The Soul functioning on its own independent of the body is a doctrine that fetches a large financial gain for those churches that teach it. Its all part of a twisted lie to exploit the flock of God, usually for financial gain, or just out of sheer ingnorance of the scripture.

Eze 34:22 --I will save my flock, that they may no more be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. This next verse is not talking about literal sheep, if you studied the Bible you would know that. If sheep are not literally sheep then shepherds are not literally shepherds as we know them. Christ was a shepherd, what was he? A representative for God +.

Psa 100:3 Know that Jehovah is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy; and say unto them, unto the shepherds, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe to the shepherds of Israel that feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?
Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool; ye kill them that are fattened: but ye feed not the flock.
Eze 34:4 The weak have ye not strengthened, nor have ye healed the sick, and ye have not bound up what was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought for that which was lost; but with harshness and with rigour have ye ruled over them.
Eze 34:5 And they were scattered because there was no shepherd; and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, and were scattered.
Eze 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill, and my sheep have been scattered upon all the face of the earth, and there was none that searched, or that sought for them.

Eze 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah:
Eze 34:8 As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, verily because my sheep have been a prey, and my sheep have been meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, and my shepherds searched not for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock,
Eze 34:9 --therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah.
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my sheep at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock: that the shepherds may feed themselves no more; and I will deliver my sheep from their mouth, that they may not be food for them.

Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, It is *I*, and shall mislead many.

Knowing what we know know, this is how Matt. 10:28 is read.
I'm going to use ebonics to expalin it ( :

Man is nothin, he didn't create us. Don't be afraid of him. He can kill but God can bring back to life.
Fear the one that created us for if He is displeased with us then there is nothing we can do, he gave us our body and soul, and he can take those away forever and throw them in the trash (Geenna), then we truly got problems.

I'm telling you thats what Christ meant in that verse. Nothing to do with souls parting bodies to go out on their own.... one to the ether and one to the earth and God judging in heaven or throwing us to hell. I don't know where people come up with this stuff, its definitely twisted.



FSC
















[/quote]

You speak as if these events are historical. Do you have any evidence that these events actually took place? Are you even aware that the Biblical account is anonymous? Who wrote this stuff down? When was it written? Why in the world should anyone believe it, especially since we have hard scientific evidence that the Biblical account of the creation of the world and the creation of human beings are false?

Yes i am very aware. The Bible accounts aren't anonymous especially not Genesis. Moses is the Author of Genesis. It was through Divine inspiration that he wrote it. I was a skeptic as you at one point in my life, probably even worse. The thing that turned me toward the scriptures was the hard scientific evidence that they couldn't be proven false. Men at the top of their field after years of research and study are baffled by it. Alot of the things that are difficult to understand in Genesis are explained in Revelation. Even Darwin himself conceeded to his mistakes and yet its still funny how the least of his followers haven't learned that his theories are majorly flawed.

Almost all people still think we evolved from apes. The evidence clearly states we haven't. There is no evidence of any major evoultionary steps within our species. All the evidence (fossil record) science has been able to pull up is that one day we humans, as we are physically today, showed up on the scene. This took place about 6000 years ago. Do the research. The fossil evidence clearly states this, even man to this day is trying to prove Darwin was right. Thats why you hear in the news "so and so discovery that links man with the apes etc... but everyone right up to this day has been proven wrong. Those who understand realize that the theory of evolution is majorly flawed, if not completely wrong. We are capable of surviving minor mutations within our species but no one can figure out how we got to be as we are today.

Random chance didn't bring us to our state. Rolling the dice we were not evolved into what we are. The probabilities are not even real because there are none. Major mutations didn't bring us here, they only destroy us. How did we get here? Adam was the first of our kind. He was great made perfect, we have only gotten worse since him.

I've got the research on the scientific evidence. None can dispute the Biblical account. We need to look at the whole and not at the little things like "how can a snake communicate with eve" thus indicating the whole scripture must be wrong and there is no God.

FSC

FSC wrote:I think Matt. 10:28 makes perfect sense.

DAR
I didn't say the verse didn't make sense. I said it didn't sense on your view (the view that there is no soul separate from the body).

Quote:
The soul is useless without the body. Once our bodies are gone our souls are gone with them.

DAR
This claim flatly contradicts the verse in question. Again:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 10:28 also Luke 12:4-5

Clearly this means that humans or someone other than God can kill a persons body "but are not able to kill the soul". Only God can do that. This is completely inconsistent with your claim that "Once our bodies are gone our souls are gone with them." This verse says our bodies can be killed separately from the soul. Others can kill the body but only God can kill souls, according to this verse. This means they are not the same thing.

As we know from reading the scriptures when you die you are literally dead. Your body returns to the earth to become fertilizer.

DAR
Yes, many verses in the OT say this. But to say this is the Bible's teaching on this you have to cherry-pick your verses, and ignore the ones that refer to a conscious existence after death. This is what you are doing. Many verses (as I have provided above) specifically refer to an existence/consciousness after death.

Another thing we know is the soul is useless without the body and vice versa. Body and soul are dependent upon each other.

DAR
Not according this verse:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul..."

According to this verse, the body can be kill independantly of the soul. Your idea that body and soul are the same makes no sense if this verse is true.

D.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul...

What he is saying IMHO is don't fear man he has no control over life and death. Fear the Creator because He is the one who determines these things. If man kills your body God can resurrect you if he so chooses.

The Analytical literal translation makes this verse a little clearer along with the New World translation.

(ALT)
Mat 10:28 "And stop fearing the ones killing the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but fear rather the One being able to destroy both {the} soul and {the} body in hell [Gr., gehenna]!
Mat 10:29 "Two sparrows are sold for an assarion [i.e. a small, Roman copper coin worth about 1/64 of an ounce or 0.22 grams of silver], are they not? And one of them does not fall on the ground without the [will] of your* Father.
Mat 10:30 "But even the hairs of your* head have all been numbered.
Mat 10:31 "Therefore, do not be frightened; you* are of greater worth than many sparrows.

New World Translation (most accurate translation according to the TV Show Jeopardy, also used by many scholars)

Mat 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na


We know that Christ knew the body and soul were dependent on each other. We know Christ knew there was no ascension for man to heaven or hell after he died. If Christ knew these things why do you think he is indicating here that the Body and soul are seperate and that after death your soul could descend to hell, hes saying Gehenna meaning the trash gone from existance, kaput never to be heard from again. This verse in no way contradicts the OT just the way your interpreting it does thats why we know the interpretation is incorrect. Christs just saying GOD makes us or breaks us and without him we are nothing, so fear not a man, fear GOd because he has the final say in all matters. If a man decides we will die God can rise us up if he chooses. If God decides we will be wiped from existance no man can ever change that, Gods say is final. Thats all this verse is saying, it doesn't contradict the OT in any way, why would God contradict himself, thats the beauty of the Bible, he doesn't.

FSC wrote: The Bible accounts aren't anonymous especially not Genesis. Moses is the Author of Genesis. It was through Divine inspiration that he wrote it. I was a skeptic as you at one point in my life, probably even worse.

a. It is not a bad thing to be a skeptic.
b. You were NEVER where I am, buddy.

FSC wrote: The thing that turned me toward the scriptures was the hard scientific evidence that they couldn't be proven false. Men at the top of their field after years of research and study are baffled by it. Alot [sic] of the things that are difficult to understand in Genesis are explained in Revelation. Even Darwin himself conceeded to his mistakes and yet its still funny how the least of his followers haven't learned that his theories are majorly flawed.

DOUG
I'll only address some of your errors at a time, since you have already made so many. [The deathbed recant of Darwin, a fiction invented by Lady Hope, I'll leave to others to educate you about.]

First, I would like you to show that Moses wrote any of the Bible. There are very good reasons to think that he did not write any of the "Books of Moses," but I want to give you a chance to make your case.

Second, it is ridiculous to state that people have researched tghe Bible and have been unable to prove it false. There are scores of things in the Bible that are known to be false. No major Bible scholar in this century would be caught dead asserting that the Bible is free of errors.

Since your ignorance of evolution shows that you do not know how to evaluate scientific evidence, I will not show you some of the myriad of Bible errors based on science. Instead, I will show you some contradictions.

#1 The Josiah Problem

When King Josiah of Judah was warned that God was angry at him and his nation, he and his people swore to keep God’s covenant (2 Kings 23:3). They got rid of the idolatrous priests (2 Kings 23:5), destroyed or defiled places of worship of other gods (2 Kings 23:8-15), and held the Passover better than anyone (2 Kings 23:21-22). The Bible says that never before or since has there been any king who “turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses” (2 Kings 23:25). 2 Chronicles 34:33 tells us that Josiah had all his subjects swear loyalty to God, and that the people followed god without fail for the rest of Josiah's life.
2 Chronicles:34:32 "Then he had everyone in Jerusalem and Benjamin pledge themselves to it; the people of Jerusalem did this in accordance with the covenant of God, the God of their fathers. 33 Josiah removed all the detestable idols from all the territory belonging to the Israelites, and he had all who were present in Israel serve the LORD their God. As long as he lived, they did not fail to follow the LORD, the God of their fathers."

Despite all this, God still decided to destroy Josiah and the nation of Judah anyway because of the things which Josiah’s grandfather, Manasseh, had done.
2 Kings 23:26 "Nevertheless, the LORD did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to provoke him to anger."

So in this case God violated the rule in Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:19-20 that children should not be punished for the sins of their parents.

However, God also violated his promise that he would not destroy a nation which turned away from evil. According to Jeremiah 18, God explained that if he has stated that he will destroy a nation and that nation turns from their evil, then god will “repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.”

Jer. 18:7 "If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned."

So Josiah repented of his not following the law and he AND HIS PEOPLE followed God's laws without fail for the rest of Josiah's life. However, God decides to kill Josiah and destroy his nation because of the sins of Manasseh. That breaks two moral precepts that God himself instituted, and one that specifically applied to himself (Jer. 18:7-8).

#2: God can’t count sons.

God mistakenly calls Isaac Abraham's only son in Genesis 22.

Just when Abraham is about to sacrifice Isaac, he is stopped by god. God says to him:

Genesis 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
The bible has god referring to Isaac has Abraham's only son, but note Genesis 16, six chapters earlier: 15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne.
16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Isaac was not born until five chapters later, when Ishmael would have been 13 years old. See Genesis 21: 1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised.
2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him.

So god mistakenly refers to Isaac as the "only son," and he does this in several parts of chapter 22:

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

15The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time
16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son...

According to Genesis 23, Sarah died and was buried in a cave in the "field of Machpelah" (vs:17-20). Two chapters later, we read that "Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah" (25:1). The next verse lists six sons (Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah) that Keturah bore to Abraham. Verse 6 later refers to "the sons of the concubines" that Abraham had, so having different mothers did not mean that the offspring were not his sons. All of the males by all of the mothers are called his sons, and when god calls Isaac Abraham's only son, he does not say "only son of Sarah."

Ishmael was the son of Abraham, and Ishmael was alive when god mistakenly referred to Isaac as Abraham's "only son."
This is a clear bible error.

Some apologists claim that god meant that Isaac was Abraham’s only “son of promise,” because god had promised to use Abraham to fulfill some grand designs. Other apologists contend that calling only the son who is an heir a “son” was a common convention in OT days.


1.In the verses cited, god does not call Isaac Abraham's "only son of promise."
2.I would like to see some support for the contention that the other sons were not considered sons. Let's see evidence that what is said about the cultural tradition is true.
3. Since other parts of the bible clearly call nonheir sons "son," the claim is clearly false. For example, the same chapter I cited, Genesis 22, mentions the sons of Abraham's brother Nahor (Gen. 22:23). All eight are called sons. Nahor's concubine bore four sons, and all of them are called sons (Gen. 22:24). Regarding Abraham specifically, the bible calls Ishmael his son too (Gen. 16:15). So there is no question that Ismael was considered Abraham's son too. The bible calls Ishmael Abraham's son.

The contradiction still stands. Bible scholars know why the "error" is there, but fundamentalists can't admit that contradictory oral traditions were combined in the scriptural text.

#3 The Conversion Simon Peter and Andrew.

Here's one from the New Testament:
Were Simon Peter and Andrew converted before or after John the Baptist was imprisoned?

Mark 1:14-18 say it was after John the Baptist was imprisoned. [NIV]

14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
16 As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
17 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
18 At once they left their nets and followed him.

John 1:40-42 and 3:22-24 say it was before John the Baptist was imprisoned.

1:40 Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus.
41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter.)

And also see John 3:22-24:
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.
23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.
24 (This was before John was put in prison.)

So does the bible tell us that Simon Peter and Andrew were converted?
Yes.
Does the bible also tell us about this conversion within a time frame in relation to the imprisonment of John the Baptist?
Yes.
Can the bible then show me which event preceded the other without contradiction?
No.
So this is a clear bible contradiction.

Those are just some of the many contradictions found in the Bible.

Don't forget: I would like you to show that Moses wrote any of the Bible.

I'm going to take this opportunity to stay up later than I should and roast this tripe.

FSC wrote:Even Darwin himself conceeded to his mistakes and yet its still funny how the least of his followers haven't learned that his theories are majorly flawed.

Even most of the crazy fundies have abandoned this one. Lady Hope never met Darwin.

FSC wrote:Almost all people still think we evolved from apes.

Wrong on two accounts. America has a hugely disproportionate ratio of evolution-deniers, mostly evangelical Christians. More importantly, not even evolutionary biologists think that humans evolved from "apes"; human and modern "apes" have a relatively recent common ancestor. When you get down to it, humans are apes.

FSC wrote:The evidence clearly states we haven't. There is no evidence of any major evoultionary steps within our species. All the evidence (fossil record) science has been able to pull up is that one day we humans, as we are physically today, showed up on the scene.

Oh really? Please, then, classify the following skulls as fully modern human or fully modern "ape."

I have never, and I mean never seen an anti-evolutionist tackle this, let alone tackle it with any semblance of reason.

FSC wrote:This took place about 6000 years ago. Do the research.

Never learned any Ancient Chinese history, did you? If those 9000 year old cities weren't created by man, it must have been the aliens...

FSC wrote:The fossil evidence clearly states this...

Explain how Homo sapiens idaltu ended up in rock over 100,000 years old. See also picture above.

FSC wrote:Thats why you hear in the news "so and so discovery that links man with the apes etc... but everyone right up to this day has been proven wrong.

Is that so? I'm still waiting for a taker on that skull challenge.

FSC wrote:Those who understand realize that the theory of evolution is majorly flawed, if not completely wrong.

Please propose a replacement theory, falsifiable and supported by more evidence than is evolution, and I'll hear you out.

FSC wrote:We are capable of surviving minor mutations within our species but no one can figure out how we got to be as we are today.

Simply incorrect, not to mention intentionally misleading. What is the determining factor between "major" or "minor" mutation? This is like saying that we can count small differences (one or two), but we'll never get a big change (a thousand).

FSC wrote:Random chance didn't bring us to our state.

Oh, I completely agree. It's not "random chance" at all. There is some randomness involved, but there's a whole hell of a lot of nonrandom stuff. We call it "selection." Maybe you've heard of it? Darwin wrote this big famous book all about it...

FSC wrote:The probabilities are not even real because there are none.

Do you really want to talk probabilities? Think hard. If so, present your case.

FSC wrote:I've got the research on the scientific evidence. None can dispute the Biblical account.

I have one word for you: Varves.

This was fun. Can we go again?

FSC wrote:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul...

What he is saying IMHO is don't fear man he has no control over life and death. Fear the Creator because He is the one who determines these things. If man kills your body God can resurrect you if he so chooses.

DAR
The verse doesn't say any of that. You just made all of that up because it is a doctrine you are invested in. I have heard all of this spin for this verse before, having been raised a JW. None of it works.

The Analytical literal translation makes this verse a little clearer along with the New World translation.
(ALT)
Mat 10:28 "And stop fearing the ones killing the body, but are not able to kill the soul;

DAR
Same problem. Once again, we see a clear distinction between body and soul. One can live without the other. This is no doubt why the vast majority of Christians believe in a soul and that it goes on after death.

New World Translation (most accurate translation according to the TV Show Jeopardy, also used by many scholars)

DAR
Oh my, now that is really funny. I am glad I wasn't drinking something when I read that. The NWT is an anonymous translation put out by the Jehovah's Witnesess (actually, it has been revealed who translated it and none of them have expertise in greek. I actually saw Fred Franz speak at a JW convention in Calgary in the early 80's when he was president of the JW's). It is filled with well known childish doctrinal corruptions and has ZERO credibility with any scholars and is not taken seriously outside of the JW organization. I have written a book about Bible errors and the doctrine of biblical inerrancy and I have a section on dishonest translations and of course it is included (although it is hardly worth mention being, as I say, ignored outside of JW circles). If you would like me to post some of the many and blatant corruptions of the New World Translation just ask and I will gladly post it.

Here is a small excerpt:

"Here are a few comments
that noted scholars have made regarding the New
World Translation:

"A frightful mistranslation." Bruce Metzger, a
recognized authority on the text of the New
Testament and professor of New Testament
Language and Literature at Princeton University.
Chairperson of the NRSV Bible Committee and
Co-editor of the New Oxford Annotated Bible.

"The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is
seen in their New World Translation. ...it is
abundantly clear that a sect which can translate
the New Testament like this is intellectually
dishonest." Dr. William Barclay, leading Greek
scholar, University of Glasgow, Scotland.

The Witnesses have in the past distorted quotes
from the well known scholar Dr. J. R. Mantey to imply
that he supported their translation. Here is what he
says (in person) in the video Witnesses of Jehovah
produced by Jeremiah Films:

"A shocking mistranslation... Obsolete and
incorrect."
"I have never found any so called translation that
goes so far away from what the scripture actually
teaches, as these books (holding up a NWT Bible)
published by Jehovah's Witnesses. They are so far
away from what there is in the original Hebrew
and the original Greek."
"You can't follow their's because it's so biased,
and it's deceptive because they deliberately
changed words in a passage of scripture to make
it fit into their doctrine. They distorted the
scripture in many passages, scores and scores of
passages in the New Testament, dealing with
the deity of Christ especially."
(Dr. Julius R. Mantey, scholar and co-author of Greek
Grammar)"
***

Gee, somebody tell Jeopardy about this. Incidentally, where did you get this idea that Jeopardy considers the NWT the "most accurate translation?" I would really like to see you try to back that one up.

Mat 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na

DAR
Right. Even they couldn't fix this one it is so clear in the greek. The body can be killed and this does not kill the soul. Therefore they must be two separate and distinct things.

We know that Christ knew the body and soul were dependent on each other.

DAR
Really? How do you know that? Evidence please.

We know Christ knew there was no ascension for man to heaven or hell after he died.

DAR
Oh, is that why He and Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit inspired verses like this in their Bible:

...If any man worship the beast and his image, and
receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The
same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the
Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up
for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor
night, who worship the beast and his image... Rev.
14:9-11

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the
lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false
prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night
for ever and ever... And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire. Rev. 20:10, 15.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they
shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a
furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of
teeth...So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels
shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the
just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:41-
42, 49-50 see also Matt. 22:13, 24:51, 25:30

And the other verses I already provided and you are ignoring. How does a person go about "wailing and gnashing their teeth" if they do not exist? How does one get tormented for ever and ever, if they don't exist? It doesn't make any sense. Clearly some of the authors of the NT believed in a hell where many humans would be tortured for all time.

...why would God contradict himself, thats the beauty of the Bible, he doesn't.

DAR
If you would like to see many examples of contradiction, including God contradicting himself, you might check out the many examples I give in a free sample of my book located here

Glad you are here FSC!

D.

ps I bet you don't believe in the trinity.

Darrel wrote:ps I bet you don't believe in the trinity.

DOUG
FSC probably thinks Jesus was crucified on a "torture stake" instead of a cross.

DAR
And "the end" is "coming soon."