Fresh Bill roast:
BILL
I have never been in favor
> of a minimum wage.
DAR
I know. Hence the irony of your, and
republican, mock outrage at the idea that an
unorganized US Territory wouldn't receive the
benefits of a Federal mandated minimum wage.
Bill
This isn't just about American Samoa. The parent company, Starfish
Tuna, a major company, is headquartered in Pelosi's district, and it is obvious that political concerns prevailed to exempt them from the minimum wage.
DAR
Well then you shouldn't have any trouble demonstrating this. When are you going to do this? I gave you a perfectly plausible reason why this unincorporated and unorganized territory, populated by non-citizens and which has never been under US minimum wage standards, wouldn't have been included in this federal mandate. You completely ignored my points. That won't do. Defend your case or don't waste my time.
BILL
Why should
> the government be concerned about what a
> willing employee and a willing
> employer agree on, regarding a wage?
DAR
Because we aren't a third world country and
don't want to look like one?
Bill
You are claiming that if the government allowed employees and employers freedom in negotiating wages, that the result would be that of a third world country? Make your case, don't just state it.
DAR
No, I am not saying it would make the US a third world country. I am saying it would drive wages down, increase poverty, suffering, wage disparity and everything that goes along an increase in these things. I know many republicans would like to have some Americans slaving away for $3 an hour (or less) while they get rich off of it but most Americans find the working destitution that $24 a day provides, unacceptable. And with good reason.
BILL
If a person is willing to work for $X, why should that be a concern
for anyone else?
DAR
Because that wage X doesn't occur in a vaccum.
It occurs in a society. People living and working
in poverty breed crime, disease and a lot of
other problems. We decided to put a floor on
poverty. In America, if you work you shouldn't
have to eat dog food or go hungry. Lots of people
do and some people think that is unacceptable in
a country that spends a 1/2 trillion a year on
the military.
And it's just a plain good idea. Good for the
economy too.
Bill
No one living in the US, can be said to be living in poverty, with all
the handouts, grants, services, etc. that are available to so many on low
income.
DAR
Well Bill, thanks for showing me that I had not yet plumbed the depths of your ignorance. Just when I think I have reached the bottom you barf up a howler like the above. It really is too stupid to be worthy of debunking but I can't resist:
As published in our local Morning News, 12/23/06:
***
Who is Homeless?
An estimated 842,000 adults and children are homeless in a given week in the United States, even though nearly 44 percent of the homeless work at least part time.
* 66 percent of the homeless are single adults, three-fourths of those are men.
* 11 percent are parents with children, 84 percent of those are single women.
* 23 percent are children younger than 18 and with a parent. Of these children, 42 percent are younger than 5.
* 54 percent were in jail or prison at some point in their lives.
* 27 percent were in foster care or institutions as children.
* 25 percent were physically or sexually abused as children.
* 23 percent are veterans.
* 21 percent were homeless as children.
Source: National Resource Center on Homelessness and Mental Illness,
www.nrchmi.samhsa.gov
link
NOTE: "11 percent are parents with children, 84 percent of those are single women. 27 percent were in foster care or institutions as children."
Who was your Jesus often talking about when he preached to take care of the poor? Widows and orphans.
You should read the rest of the above article too.
BILL
I don't know anyone who is working that has to eat dog food or
go hungry.
DAR
Well I am sure they don't exist then.
And I know of many charities, churches, etc. that feed the
hungry.
DAR
That's nice. Maybe if these poor (some destitute) people (44% work) could live in DIGNITY and not on HANDOUTS if they WERE PAID A @$&#% LIVING WAGE.
BILL
I sent you an article some time ago from an economist, who was not in
favor of raising the minimum wage. If you received it, you did not see fit to respond.
DAR
I roast most of your crap but I don't have time to give you a private roast on every piece of junk you pass along. Post it in this forum and I'll roast it.
I have read both sides of the minimum wage argument. There are good arguments on both sides (although nothing you have provided on the issue has approached the level of "good", it's always junk). If you raise the MW too much it puts pressure on employment. So it's a balance. The idea that there should be no price floor, no minimum wage, is just radical rightwing greed and it has very little support. This is why it is a losing issue for you.
BILL
> What I object to, is the hypocrisy of Nancy
> Pelosi,
DAR
You haven't demonstrated any hypocrisy.
[Snip]
BILL
and then
> exempts those in her home
> district.
DAR
The minimum wage in her home district was
raised, as it was in every state.
Bill
She made an exception for the Tuna Company headquartered in her
district.
DAR
Prove it. When Starkist Tuna pays US employees, in the United States, they pay them minimum wage. I don't think the US government should make Starkist pay MW when they hire people who are non-citizens, living in unorganized, unincorporated territories not governed by the US. But we are supposed to believe that you do? Is that what you expect me to believe?
If they want the minimum wage there than the US congressman from American Samoa should put forward a bill. Oh wait, THEY DON'T HAVE A US CONGRESSMAN because they aren't governed by the US.
I think read somewhere that their government has given them a MW (might have been The Northern Mariana Islands). I think it was $3 an hour. I don't know about their economy and standard of living. That might be a decent standard of living there. It isn't here.
BILL
That sounds like hypocrisy to me.
DAR
It's hypocritical to represent and look out for interests of the people in your district? How is that? Why should US companies be forced to pay US minimum wage when they employ non-citizens that don't live in the US? Please support this idiotic argument of yours.
DAR
I don't know anyone not worth $7.25 an hour.
Give me the name of someone not worth $7.25 an
hour. If the government via the law decides that
that is what they are worth, then that is what
they will be paid and that, by defintion, is what
they are worth. "Value" is a very subjective
thing. We get to make it up (not always, but a
lot of the time).
Bill
A person is not worth $7.25 per hour if what he can do will not profit
a business by more than $7.25 per hour. If the business loses money by
hiring him, it is a net loss. Remember Mr. B.? (spelling?) He was a piano technician briefly and is now in some other field. You wrote me about him telling me how incompetent he was. Would you admit that as a
technician, he was not worth $7.25 per hour?
DAR
No, he was easily worth $7.25 per hour. He was probably charging $40 per hour or more. He went out of business because he wasn't trained and didn't do good work, but supervised and instructed in what to do his labor would easily be worth more like $15 per hour. Any one doing competent supervised piano work is worth this. If they are incompetent for this detailed work (as he may have been, it's not for everyone), fire them and get someone who can.
BILL
Oh, I forgot; if the government decides that he is worth $7.25 per hour, then that is what he is worth.
DAR
Right. And dollars are worth 100 pennies. Always will be (but the value of pennies will fluctuate). Please make a note of it.
BILL
How about a retarded youngster?
DAR
Oh how you love to reminisce about your youth!
BILL
They can do simple tasks such as emptying waste cans, sweeping floors, etc. But they would require much supervision and guidance.
DAR
It's called janitorial work and it regularly earns more than minimum wage with supervision.
BILL
Would you agree that $7.25 per hour would be too much for their work?
DAR
The job is worth minimum wage or more. I worked for years in janitorial work as a teenager. If someone is so mentally challenged that they cannot do the work then they should do a task they can do (Church of Christ pastor?).
But your example is bogus anyway. If you have an instance like this you can pay a person by the job or by salary.
BILL
Should they not work at all?
DAR
Some people fall in this category yes. Nursing homes are filled with such tragic examples. And because the republicans have not yet destroyed SS and other parts of the government safety net, we don't yet turn them out in the streets to be eaten by wild animals. But maybe you guys will do better in the next election and can impliment more of the republican plan for the Christianization of America.
D.
