Sylvia Browne Looks Foolish On Radio Show

[Tamara]

I prefer to keep the possibility of a little magic around. I enjoy it more than trying analyse and debunk every quirky event. Another example: About three years ago I really wanted to find the "right" man. My mom believes in prayer big time and I was hanging around her a lot so I thought I would give it a try. I'd never really given it, or belief in god, a fair shot I figured.

I had also made somewhat poor choices in men previously, so I decided to do as my mother suggested and put it all in god's hands. I prayed that the right man would come into my life (as silly as that felt) and that I would be given a sign so that I would know when the right one appeared. I decided the sign would be a butterfly landing on the man's head.

I was dating a fellow at the time and everytime a butterfly was near I would watch and wait, but never did one alight upon him. About a year later I met this new fellow and very early on in our relationship he read a book aloud to me that had great meaning to him. It was a simple book with drawings on each page. While he read it became obvious that he identified with the main character. Then, towards the end of the book, there was a butterfly that landed on that character's head. I enjoyed thinking of this as my sign. Of course, one could debunk the coincidence all day long or argue that if I saw a butterfly land on some ugly old guy's head it wouldn't have had the same meaning. One could also say that a butterfly didn't actually land on his head in any event, and on and on...

Now I don't believe that god chose an athiest for me (though that would be a neat trick), or that I prayed him into my life. But I would rather have this little event remain a mystery for me than dissect it looking for flaws. That would take all the fun out of it. I find a certain beauty in feeling like there is some connection that we can tap into even if it makes no sense, or maybe because it is unreasonable.

I loved the little chill I got when I saw the butterfly on the page. I really don't see the harm in it.

[Guest]

That's a cool story, and you're right, there is no harm in it, as long as you just take it for whatever it is and enjoy it and go, wow, cool. The problem is when people start depending on such things, or trying to convert others, or making it into a money making scheme, or taking over the entire government of what was once considered the greatest nation on earth, etc... you know, like religion.

[Doug]

This is why one should almost ask permission (or it would be polite to ask) before you debunk some of the more personal "magical" beliefs of others. Especially if it involves the death of loved ones etc. Now there are certain things that we know with great certainty, the age of the earth, the non-flatness of the earth, the contradictory nature of the Bible God, Biblical errancy etc, that I have NO compunction about roasting with no mercy. But there are some sacred areas, and some occasions, where I think it's better to walk a little lighter. Quite a subjective line. Depends on the mood....

DOUG
If I were at a funeral, I would not tell everyone that the deceased person is NOT in an afterlife, if that were their belief. Unless they specifically asked me about it.

But other than that, I don't see why anyone who knows what IS going on should refrain from bringing up the issue of truth.

One of the great misconceptions about nonbelievers is that they take the wonder out of the universe. That is nonsense. There are plenty of mysteries yet to be solved. In fact, I would say that I appreciate the wonder of the universe MORE than theists because I can marvel at the universe just as it is. I don't have to put ghosts or magic in it in order to think it is worthwhile.

Compare: Person A, a theist, loves his daughter only because she allegedly has a soul. Person A says that if he were to discover that his daughter did not have a soul, he would feel no qualms about killing her.

Person B loves his daughter regardless of whether she has a soul, and in fact does not believe that she has one.

Who loves his daughter more? I would say it is person B.

I don't need ghosts, gods, magic, or luck in the universe in order to love and appreciate the universe. As Mr. Rogers would say, "People can love you just the way you are." That applies to people and to universes.

[Doug]

I loved the little chill I got when I saw the butterfly on the page. I really don't see the harm in it.

DOUG
The harm is that it legitimizes magical thinking. If you think it is OK for you to believe that some divine or cosmic forces brought you together with you mate, how could you condemn someone else for believing, say, that God has told him to wipe out Islam, or that the ouija board told him to quit his job?

You're an enabler!

[Dardedar]

I loved the little chill I got when I saw the butterfly on the page. I really don't see the harm in it.

DOUG
The harm is that it legitimizes magical thinking.

DAR
The irony: Doug is a magician and promoter of magic.

DOUG
If you think it is OK for you to believe that some divine or cosmic forces brought you together with you mate, how could you condemn someone else for believing, say, that God has told him to wipe out Islam, or that the ouija board told him to quit his job?

DAR
That's right. I do want to have a page listing many real life and gut wrentching examples of the dangers of magical thinking. Tamara's example seems so innocous (and is taken by itself) but how can it objectively be shown to be different from the magical belief that having sex with a young virgin can cure you of AIDS? The younger, the more powerful the magical cure so this has affect infants. Yes. This horrific myth has increased the spread of AIDS and misery. Similar irrational beliefs have stymied the efforts to wipe out polio. Think of the endangered animals that are hunted because some mythology tells them that rhino's horn will make them more viral etc. There are many many more examples. You can read a nice collection of them here:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/delusions.html

This one may be the most ridiculous (from the above site):

***
Nigerian Genitalia Vanishing Epidemic of 1990

During 1990, an episode of "vanishing" genitalia caused widespread fear across Nigeria. Native psychiatrist Sunny Ilechukwu (1992) said that most reports of attacks involved male victims. Accusations were usually triggered by incidental body contact with a stranger in a public place, after which the "victim" would feel strange scrotum sensations and grab their genitals to confirm that they were still there. Then they would confront the person as a crowd would gather, accusing them of being a genital thief, before stripping naked to convince bystanders that their penis was really missing. Many "victims" claimed that the penis had been returned once the alarm had been raised or that, although the penis was now back, "it was shrunken and so probably a 'wrong' one or just the ghost of a penis" (95). The accused was often threatened or beaten until the penis had been "fully restored," and in some instances, the accused was beaten to death. Ilechukwu (1992, 96) described the scene in one city:

Men could be seen in the streets of Lagos holding on to their genitalia either openly or discreetly with their hands in their pockets. Women were also seen holding on to their breasts directly or discreetly by crossing the hands across the chest. It was thought that inattention and a weak will facilitated the "taking" of the penis or breasts. Vigilance and anticipatory aggression were thought to be good prophylaxis.

Social and cultural traditions contributed to the outbreak as many Nigerian ethnic groups "ascribe high potency to the external genitalia as ritual and magical objects to promote fecundity or material prosperity to the unscrupulous" (Ilechukwu 1988, 313). The belief in vanishing genitalia was not only plausible but institutionalized; many influential Nigerians expressed outrage when police released suspected genital thieves. A Christian priest even claimed that a Bible passage where Jesus asked "Who touched me?" because the "power had gone out of him," referred to genital stealing (101-102).
***

Oh, this is an excellent little article on the subject too:

Skepticism in Argentina: Life and Death and Magical Thinking

http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-03/argentina.html

D.
---------------------
"Earlier today, Bush flew to New Orleans. There was an awkward moment
when he looked around and said 'Oh my god, what the hell happened here?' " --Conan

[Doug]

DOUG
The harm is that it legitimizes magical thinking.

DAR
The irony: Doug is a magician and promoter of magic..

DOUG
Conjuring, yes.

Heck, I've even played the card game "Magic."

[Guest]

DOUG
The harm is that it legitimizes magical thinking. If you think it is OK for you to believe that some divine or cosmic forces brought you together with you mate, how could you condemn someone else for believing, say, that God has told him to wipe out Islam, or that the ouija board told him to quit his job?

You're an enabler!

When I am talking about magical events I am refering to when there seems to be a consistent pattern that I don't understand but would sure like to. Perhaps the word magic is misleading but I don't have a better label for it.

I think that there may very well be cosmic forces. Why not? We have forces here on earth that we can all agree on now, such as gravity, but we didn't always understand them. Perhaps we, as beings on earth, have our own forces. Or maybe there are cosmic forces that affect both the earth and its inhabitants. I certainly do not know, but am open-minded enough to think that there are many possible truths that have yet to be discovered all around us.

I never meant to infer that I believed a divine being had any part in the butterfly incident. It seemed more as if my intent was the key. I wonder if there is some kind of force that brings things, people, and what-have-you together and if we can affect this force with our intent. I do not see this requiring anything supernatural.

I really don't get how imaging different possibilities is a slippery slope to completely irrational and insane behavior. Are you saying that by wondering if I affect what happens in my future in ways other than those I am aware of I could be doomed to begin slaughtering those who would dare disagree with my opinions?

Much of what we now consider science was at one time thought of as irrational to the majority of people because it didn't fit with how they thought the world operated. That's why I like to keep an open mind.

Maybe someone could give me a better name than "magic" to define what I am refering to but I have not been convinced of any harm in considering all possiblilities.

[Tamara]

Whoops, forgot to Log on...that last post was from Tamara

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

I'm with Tamara on this. We don't know all there is & a lot of what we do know was very suspect before we learned it. It doesn't hurt you that I happen to believe in life eternal (& I'm not talking about religion or souls). It' allows me to see/believe that there are things worse than the death of this body, amongst many other things, and allows me to have an optimism about things (like the apparent attempts of industrial society to destroy the planet on which we live, or at least all life on it) that I otherwise wouldn't.

As to the gambling - Reno or Vegas - my former mother-in-law went to Vegas every year for some 50 years - and won every year. She came home and bought or paid off something from her Keno winnings every year until her eyesight failed at 80-something. And, as long as there is no real money involved, I have an approximately 75% win rate with a game called Canfield - have me gambling for real money and I lose everything and then some (& I can't quit, which is why I don't start). My own (losing when money is involved) is probably nerves - but I can't explain my former mother-in-law.

[Doug]

When I am talking about magical events I am refering to when there seems to be a consistent pattern that I don't understand but would sure like to. Perhaps the word magic is misleading but I don't have a better label for it.

DOUG
Physics has many natural patterns you and I don't understand. Maybe Bill "Bamboozler" Harter could understand them, but we don't. That doesn't make them magic patterns.

I think that there may very well be cosmic forces. Why not? We have forces here on earth that we can all agree on now, such as gravity, but we didn't always understand them. Perhaps we, as beings on earth, have our own forces. Or maybe there are cosmic forces that affect both the earth and its inhabitants. I certainly do not know, but am open-minded enough to think that there are many possible truths that have yet to be discovered all around us.

DOUG
Sure, science is not done. There are lots of things left to discover. But that's not magic.

I never meant to infer that I believed a divine being had any part in the butterfly incident. It seemed more as if my intent was the key. I wonder if there is some kind of force that brings things, people, and what-have-you together and if we can affect this force with our intent. I do not see this requiring anything supernatural.

DOUG
If there is such a force, it should be fired. And it will get a very bad letter of recommendation!

I really don't get how imaging different possibilities is a slippery slope to completely irrational and insane behavior. Are you saying that by wondering if I affect what happens in my future in ways other than those I am aware of I could be doomed to begin slaughtering those who would dare disagree with my opinions?

DOUG
Yes. I've seen you practicing with that butcher knife!

Seriously, there is no harm in thinking outside the box. But only to enlarge the box. Science is a method, not a dogma. As Sagan would say, it may not be perfect, but it's the best thing we have for discovering reality. Science advances when people overturn cherished beliefs by proving that reality doesn't conform to our expectations. There are cosmic forces outside of the little science box that we have yet to discover. But as far as anyone can tell, there is no magic outside the box.

Much of what we now consider science was at one time thought of as irrational to the majority of people because it didn't fit with how they thought the world operated. That's why I like to keep an open mind.

DOUG
That's why I keep my mind open too. But having an open mind is not the same as having a hole in your head. One can run ahead of the curve, but don't run off the road.

Maybe someone could give me a better name than "magic" to define what I am refering to but I have not been convinced of any harm in considering all possiblilities.

DOUG
There is no harm in considering all possibilities. But believing unproven and irrational possibilities is another thing.

[Dardedar]

DAR
It is a careful balance between being too gullible and letting in nonsense, or being too skeptical and closing yourself off to really bizarre possiblities that are true or may be true (or may lead you to other interesting things that are true). Just a year ago Doug and Bill Harter got caught on the wrong side (too skeptical) when we heard about somebody supposedly shrinking quarters at Springfest (by blasting them with massive amounts of electricity). Bill was telling me "impossible" Doug was saying it was a crock, and I was stuck in the middle because I trusted Bill but my bullshit detector was telling me that this guy wasn't doing a simple switcheroo with the quarters bit. So I thought Bill was wrong but not sure enough that I would bet money on it. Turned out the method is legit. Hopefully the guy will be there this Spring. I would like to see if he could do a demonstration at a meeting or something.

The Humanist Statement of Principles has a nice line in it that tries to cover the not too skeptical/not too gullible dilemma:

* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

It's good to have a nice balance. We will all draw that line in different places.

D.
---------------------------
I also like what Ingersoll said regarding the afterlife and peoples beliefs:

"Neither by word nor look have I expressed any other feeling than sympathy with those who hope to live again -- for those who bend above their dead and dream of life to come. But I have denounced the selfishness and heartlessness of those who expect for themselves an eternity of joy, and for the rest of mankind predict, without a tear, a world of endless pain. Nothing can be more contemptible than such a hope -- a hope that can give satisfaction only to the hyenas of the human race.
-- Ingersoll, "A Reply to the Rev. Henry M. Field, D.D."

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Other than fraud, magic IS something that works but we don't know why. Denying that it works is not the way to find out why it works. Most, if not all, of our commonly accepted scientific laws (and a few that still aren't accepted by the IDers and the flat-earthers) were once considered either "magic" or blasphemy or both - and many of the people trying to investigate them were punished by unbelieving society, one way or another, for doing so. All "right-thinking" people have fits at the mention of astrology - but they equally admit the moon affects the earth in tides, if nothing else (& a majority of female menses cycles with the moon - now the idea that the cycle is is based on where the moon was at either conception or birth of woman in question is usually blown off, but since it hasn't been tested, I'm keeping an open mind on it - how or whether that connects with astrology is something else again).

Science is no way shape or form finished finding the "secrets of the universe" so there's a whole lot of room for "magic" using the definition above.

[Doug]

Just a year ago Doug and Bill Harter got caught on the wrong side (too skeptical) when we heard about somebody supposedly shrinking quarters at Springfest (by blasting them with massive amounts of electricity). Bill was telling me "impossible" Doug was saying it was a crock, and I was stuck in the middle because I trusted Bill but my bullshit detector was telling me that this guy wasn't doing a simple switcheroo with the quarters bit. So I thought Bill was wrong but not sure enough that I would bet money on it. Turned out the method is legit. Hopefully the guy will be there this Spring. I would like to see if he could do a demonstration at a meeting or something.

DOUG
Well, Bill and I had heard that the guy was shrinking quarters by "eliminating the space between the molecules." That was bullshit. He was just blasting them around the circumference with an electric charge, changing the shape/size. That's different. You were right on the effect, wrong on method. We were right on method (what we had heard he was doing is impossible, given his means), wrong on effect.

[Doug]

Other than fraud, magic IS something that works but we don't know why. Denying that it works is not the way to find out why it works.

DOUG
Once again: after more than a century of looking for paranormal effects, there is NO evidence of magic.

Magic does not "work" because magic is not a force or an explanation. There is nothing there to "work." "Magic" is the lack of an explanation. It makes no sense to say that a lack of an explanation "works."

Most, if not all, of our commonly accepted scientific laws (and a few that still aren't accepted by the IDers and the flat-earthers) were once considered either "magic" or blasphemy or both - and many of the people trying to investigate them were punished by unbelieving society, one way or another, for doing so.

DOUG
Note what you just said. The scientific laws "were once considered 'magic.'" Now that we know of these laws, now that they are an explanation in science, they are not magic anymore.

Moral of the story: "Magic" is not an explanation. It is an admission that you have no explanation.

All "right-thinking" people have fits at the mention of astrology - but they equally admit the moon affects the earth in tides, if nothing else (& a majority of female menses cycles with the moon - now the idea that the cycle is is based on where the moon was at either conception or birth of woman in question is usually blown off, but since it hasn't been tested, I'm keeping an open mind on it - how or whether that connects with astrology is something else again).

DOUG
It has been tested. See:

http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html

the average menstrual cycle is 28 days but varies from woman to woman and month to month, while the length of the lunar month is a consistent 29.53 days.* Some of us have noticed that these cycles are not identical. Furthermore, it would seem odd that natural selection would favor a method of reproduction for a species like ours that depended on the weather. Clouds are bound to be irregularly and frequently blocking moonlight, which would seem to hinder rather than enhance our species' chance for survival.

Some mythmakers believe that long ago women all bled in sync with the moon, but civilization and indoor electric lighting (or even the discovery of fire by primitive humans) have disturbed their rhythmic cycle. This theory may seem plausible until one remembers that there are quite a few other mammals on the planet that have not been affected by firelight or civilization's indoor lighting and whose cycles aren't in harmony with the moon. In short, given the large number of types of mammals on our planet, one would expect that by chance some species' estrus and menstrual cycles would harmonize with lunar cycles (e.g., the lemur). It is doubtful that there is anything of metaphysical significance in this.

What we do know is that there has been very little research on hormonal or neurochemical changes during lunar phases. James Rotton's search of the literature "failed to uncover any studies linking lunar cycles to substances that have been implicated as possible correlates of stress and aggression (e.g., serotonin, melatonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine, testosterone, cortisol, vasopressin [directly relevant to fluid content], growth hormone, pH, 17-OHCS, adrenocrotropic hormone [? adrenocorticotropic hormone?])" (Rotton 1997). One would think that this area would be well-studied, since hormones and neurochemicals are known to affect menstruation and behavior.

See also:
http://www.fwhc.org/health/moon.htm

Science is no way shape or form finished finding the "secrets of the universe" so there's a whole lot of room for "magic" using the definition above.

DOUG
If you define magic as what we don't know, there is a lot of magic. But that would be a vacuous definition.

[Savonarola]

Other than fraud, magic IS something that works but we don't know why. .... Science is no way shape or form finished finding the "secrets of the universe" so there's a whole lot of room for "magic" using the definition above.

Clarke's (third) law states, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Along the same lines, "If we don't understand how it happened, magic must be responsible." Doug beat me to this, of course, but this is just the "God of the Gaps" argument, with "magic" replacing God. When you define magic that way, it means nothing.

[Dardedar]

Re: quarter shrinking:

DOUG
Well, Bill and I had heard that the guy was shrinking quarters by "eliminating the space between the molecules."

DAR
That was Larry Smith's conjecture and I don't know if he got that from the guy doing the quarter shrinking or thought of that himself. I never had an opinion on how it might be happening other than to perhaps float ideas. If you have a regular quarter and shrink it to half the size, you don't have to be a physicist to know that some material inside that quarter is closer together than it was previously (or gone).

That was bullshit. He was just blasting them around the circumference with an electric charge, changing the shape/size. That's different.

DAR
That's what was claimed and said to be impossible. The guy was blasting quarters with a very large electric charge (huge capacitors) and shrinking them by about one third to one half the size. Bill plainly said this was impossible. You said it was a crock and you both looked at me like I was a gullible fool for not going along with you. I remember Bill saying "Oh geez, you don't really believe that do you Darrel?" It WAS NOT, "oh there may be something to this but it isn't an elimination of the space between the molecules." It was dismissed out of hand.

Incidentally, you found the detailed and extensive information showing the shrinking was legit and I know you sent it to Bill. I am not sure that Bill accepts it because I don't remember him commenting about it. It is very hard for humans to admit error!

Here's a boo boo of mine. I, like many skeptics who have had to eat some crow on this, used to think acupuncture was a complete crock. Turns out now that it isn't and has been shown to have useful effect by release of endorphins as shown in tests by the NIH (although nothing regarding Qi or chi energy or miridians are required or implied).

Apparently also, the useful effect can be caused by electrical stimulation so no need for the needles, and if you are going to use needles, a recent study shows that it doesn't matter where you stick them, so this is more evidence that it is something other than miridians or the unblocking of some mysterious Qi energy.

D.
-------------------------


.
.

[Dardedar]

Barbara Fitzpatrick wrote:
All "right-thinking" people have fits at the mention of astrology - but they equally admit the moon affects the earth in tides,...

DAR
If astrologers limited themselves to effects from the moon it would be much harder to debunk the daylights out of them (a little harder but not much), because the moon does have a measureable effect on the earth. But since they say our lives and future are effected by objects that are so distant they have a far less gravitational effect on us than say, my computer moniter in front of me, their claims are nonsensical (but you know that). They fail for two main reasons. No plausible reason for how it could work, when you test it, it doesn't work.

Doug has written a nice little pamphlet on this here:

http://fayfreethinkers.com/tracts/astrology.shtml

D.
------------------------
"According to the German newspaper Die Zeit, 44 astrologers in the Netherlands recently submitted voluntarily to a test prepared by the Dutch Society of Skeptics. The astrologers were given two lists. One contained the place and date of birth of seven persons. The second provided abundant personal information about each of the seven individuals. The astrologers were asked to match each person on the first list with his respective description on the second list by using their alleged skills with astrology. How successful were they? Half the astrologers did not even get one correct answer, and no one was able to match more than three correctly. Previous experiments had yielded similar results, but the astrologers claimed that they had been supplied with the wrong information. In this case, however, the terms of the test were set by the astrologers themselves." --Awake 5/8/96

[Dardedar]

Other than fraud, magic IS something that works but we don't know why.

DAR
Maybe Barbara has in mind an example of magic working... ?

D.
------------
The Cooda Bean

Do you know the cooda bean?
It's magic. I think it's green.
Its magic consists in this:
it's always right, with nary a miss.

If someone tells you, "That's a contradiction!
It's full of lies! It's merely fiction!"
Answer them back, with reply serene:
"Oh no, you're wrong, it's 'cooda bean.'"

If someone claims, "That's simply untrue,
science shows that will never do."
Go to the garden, get out your tureen,
and serve them up some cooda bean.

When they say, "That's incoherent,
the truth of that is not apparent."
Don't serve them blood, don't serve them bread,
get out your cooda beans, instead.

Just one last thing, one last condition
concerning cooda bean nutrition;
they might be filling, and promote weight gain,
but they're sadly lacking as food for the brain.

So while they're fine as fodder for making up tales
about ghosts and spirits, or ribs or whales,
when it comes to knowledge about what's real,
faxen sions make a better meal.
--Hymn #666, Nullifidian Hernbook (the n is silent)
"The Cooda Bean" (from Greg Ewrin)

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Not sure where to start and tired anyway. Doug - the idea I mentioned that hasn't particularly been tested about moon cycles and menses (and the moon may affect weather, but weather doesn't necessarily affect menses) is the one that suggests different women's cycles are different because of where the moon was at the time of the woman's either birth or conception (i.e., if the woman was born/conceived when the moon was in its 3rd quarter, then she would cycle at the 3rd quarter), which of course would also be valid for other mammals. Women aren't oceans and the fact that they don't all cycle with the tides doesn't mean there isn't a connection. We know but don't understand the connection between births and moon cycles. (More babies are born on the full moon than at any other time, followed closely by number of babies born on the new moon - both my sons did the latter).

Actually, Dar sort of hit the example I had in mind - acupunture - it has been looked upon as fraud, "a crock", quackery, and magic. We now have evidence it works, although the magical explanation of why it works is apparently incorrect (as was the magical explanation of "humors" for human illness in the 19th century's best western medicine). It is something that works, but we don't know why. That makes it magic in my book until we find out why (I'm not sure the release of endorphins explanation is well tested enough to be considered fact yet) - then it will be science.

A whole lot of space has been used here to argue at cross purposes. Doug and Dar keep coming back with "magic as extreme wishful thinking" roasts - and, of course, they are correct about what they are talking about. But Tamara and I and several others have been talking about "magic as something that happened or works that is unexplained". Some of our stuff can be explained (even if we'd rather it weren't), but some of it cannot - at least at this point in time and stage of our society's knowledge - and all the stories of invisible dragons and Cooda Beans in the world do nothing but attempt to invalidate rather than research our experiences.

[Doug]

That was bullshit. He was just blasting them around the circumference with an electric charge, changing the shape/size. That's different.

That's what was claimed and said to be impossible. The guy was blasting quarters with a very large electric charge (huge capacitors) and shrinking them by about one third to one half the size. Bill plainly said this was impossible. You said it was a crock and you both looked at me like I was a gullible fool for not going along with you. I remember Bill saying "Oh geez, you don't really believe that do you Darrel?" It WAS NOT, "oh there may be something to this but it isn't an elimination of the space between the molecules." It was dismissed out of hand.

DOUG
The main reason I thought it was not taking place was the alleged explanation, along with not having seen several samples. If someone is just whacking coins to make them fatter and smaller, who would argue with that? You can see that the thickness is increased along with the smaller size.

Incidentally, you found the detailed and extensive information showing the shrinking was legit and I know you sent it to Bill. I am not sure that Bill accepts it because I don't remember him commenting about it. It is very hard for humans to admit error!

DOUG
He did admit he was wrong about it, but in similar terms that I used. He, too, thought the method initially described is impossible, so he didn't believe it.

Here's a boo boo of mine. I, like many skeptics who have had to eat some crow on this, used to think acupuncture was a complete crock. Turns out now that it isn't and has been shown to have useful effect by release of endorphins as shown in tests by the NIH (although nothing regarding Qi or chi energy or miridians are required or implied).

Apparently also, the useful effect can be caused by electrical stimulation so no need for the needles, and if you are going to use needles, a recent study shows that it doesn't matter where you stick them, so this is more evidence that it is something other than miridians or the unblocking of some mysterious Qi energy.

DOUG
Hmmph. Next you'll say that those kung-fu movies I watch where people jump 30 feet in the air are not real!