fayfreethinkers.com

Darrel wrote:If I remember right, I think Dan Barker has also, in his book, made a case for a stake instead of a cross.

DOUG
Right. And Barker adheres to the view that the cross is an adoption of the "T" for Tammuz, a "pagan" god.

I'm skeptical of this as the source for the cross symbol, but it is true that the origin of the symbol for Christianity is unclear.

As is, by the way, the fish symbol.

"If Christianity were only stupid and unscientific, if its god were ignorant and kind, if it promised eternal joy to believers, and if the believers practiced the forgiveness they teach, for one I should let the faith alone. But there is another side to Christianity. It is not only stupid, but malicious. It is not only unscientific, but it is heartless. It's god is not only ignorant, but infinitely cruel. It not only promises the faithful an eternal reward, but declares that nearly all of the children of men, imprisoned in the dungeons of god will suffer eternal pain. This is the savagery of Christianity.”
--Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

***

"It isn't science that's hostile to religion; it facts and knowledge that threaten it. And scientists are in the business of discovering facts and knowledge. We once threw virgins into volcanoes to appease the gods so that our crops would flourish. Then climatology, astronomy, and the earth sciences allowed us to understand that the sacrifice of human women was irrelevant (though comfortingly patriarchal).

Why should science feel obliged to have any dialogue whatsoever with a view of the universe that is antithetical to objective, provable knowledge? It would be condescending at best. Religion is willful ignorance, the belief that some nebulous, indefinable, larger truth is superior to actual reality.

Any scientist who shows up in church every Sunday may be there out of community pressure, consideration for a less-educated spouse, or to dazzle the congregation with a new hat; I don't know. But show me a scientist who's also a creationist, and I'll show you a bloody awful scientist.

Why on earth would anyone base his ethical values on the ramblings of some Bronze Age scribes, instead of embracing what evolution and adaptation have given us: the fact that mutual cooperation and living in civil societies give us the best chance for survival? Science, in other words, transcends and obviates religion by boiling it down to one utterance: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
--Huff Po comment

Atheist PM
(No, it's not a sleep aid...)


Australia's PM: And also voted one of the hottest Aussies in 2007

When Julia Gillard became Australia's first female prime minister last week she quickly earned international headlines and received a congratulatory call from President Obama for her accomplishment.

Now it turns out she's broken another barrier that, for American voters at least, would be far more daunting than her gender: She doesn't believe in God.

"No, I don't," she told an interviewer at Australia's national radio, ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corp.) who asked her point blank if she believed in God. "I'm not a religious person."

"I was brought up in the Baptist Church, but during my adult life I've, you know, found a different path. I'm of course a great respecter of religious beliefs, but they're not my beliefs."

Gillard was a studious Christian as a child, winning prizes for catechism lessons and for memorizing Bible verses. But, she noted, "I've made decisions in my adult life about my own views."

The new Australian P.M. is known for her razor-sharp debating skills and direct answers to direct questions, and that was also evident in her interview with ABC radio in Melbourne about her religion, or lack of it.

"I am not going to pretend a faith I don't feel," she said, according to the audio. "And for people of faith the greatest compliment I could pay to them is to respect their genuinely held beliefs and not to engage in some pretense about mine. I think it's not the right thing."

See here.

Great little ten minute video from "nonstamp collector."

Christianity Debate

It's over before it gets started.

CANDIA, N.H. – A Catholic priest in New Hampshire plans to visit a Candia water park to see if he can see the face of Jesus in the park's lifeguard flag. The owner of the Liquid Planet Water Park said that when the flag was unfurled earlier this season staff saw what looked to them like a shadowy image of Jesus Christ. Kevin Dumont said he had been praying for a miracle to improve business.

Since the flag was opened, there have been a string of perfect days and business is up 200 percent.

The New Hampshire Union Leader said Father Volney "Von" DeRosia from St. Joseph's Church in Epping will visit the park Thursday to try to determine if the image could have been intentionally fabricated.

See here.

Four, million, bucks. Maybe they can teach people how to cast spells with dead chickens? Afterall, there is Tyson money involved.

***
New Certificate Program in Leadership, Faith and Spirituality

Walton College’s Tyson Center to offer program unique in the U.S.

FAYETTEVILLE, Ark. – The Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality in the Workplace, is offering a certificate program in leadership, faith and spirituality for business executives and community leaders. The workshop is being held in conjunction with the Center for Management and Executive Education. Both centers are part of the Sam M. Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas,

The six-day program begins on Sept. 28 with two days of training at the Donald W. Reynolds Center for Enterprise Development on the university campus. The group will then meet for two days in October and two days in November. Each participant will take on a “breakthrough initiative” that will consist of a real-time case study in their organization or with their clients.

For registration and more information, go to Center for Management and Executive Education on the Web or call 1-888-824-3933.

“This is the only program of its kind in the country,” said Judith Neal, director of the Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality in the Workplace. “This certificate program fulfills a great need for people who are interested in being trained and credentialed in this emerging field.”

Faith and spirituality in the workplace is a very new field of study and practice. In 2009, the Walton College established the first outreach center of this type to be located in a public institution. The Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality in the Workplace was made possible through a $2 million gift from the Tyson Family Foundation and Tyson Foods, Inc, which was matched by the Walton Family Charitable Support Foundation, Inc., creating a $4 million endowment.

Neal said, “Many people are interested in learning about ways to integrate faith and spirituality in the workplace as we’ve seen at Tyson Center events. In addition, people who are business leaders, business owners, coaches, workplace chaplains and consultants, have been asking about how they can get legitimate training and credentials in this field.”

More:

http://newswire.uark.edu/article.aspx?id=14389

Women in leadership, still a grave crime.

Vatican: Ordination Of Women A 'Grave Crime'

"The idea that women seeking to spread the message of God somehow defiles the Eucharist reveals an antiquated, backward church that still views women as unclean and unholy,..." --Erin Saiz Hanna, executive director of the Women's Ordination Conference, a U.S.-based organization that works to ordain women as priests, deacons and bishops.

Pope Benedict has said the question of ordaining women – often raised as an antidote to the priest shortage and to bring about more gender equality – is not up for discussion.

The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest trying to ordain her. That is repeated in the new document, adding that the priest can also be defrocked – a permanent punishment, whereas an excommunication can be lifted if the person expresses sorrow for what he or she did.

Scicluna defended the inclusion of both sex abuse and ordination of women in the same document as a way of codifying two of the most serious canonical crimes against sacraments and morals that the congregation deals with. Also included are other sacramental crimes, including desecrating the Eucharist and – for the first time – heresy, apostasy and schism.

Clerical abuse is "an egregious violation of moral law," Scicluna said. "An attempted ordination of a woman is grave, but on another level: It is a wound, it is an attempt against the Catholic faith on the sacrament of (holy) orders. So they are grave, but on different levels." Huff Po

DAR
Note to freethinkers: do try and practice a little heresy and apostasy every day, but no schisming!

D.

Oh GOD NOOO! Don't defrock me! I NEED MY FROCK!!!...wait...is frock latin for penis?...cause if not maybe I am overly concerned. It's just when I hear the words priest and frock I think of cock....

Phil Ferguson writes a letter to the ladies of catholicism:

***

Open letter to the women of the Catholic Church,

Maybe, you can overlook 2,000 years of oppression and misogyny. Maybe, you can ignore the Inquisition. Maybe you forgot that for almost 1,000 years the death of an unbaptized infant would result in perpetual suffering in Limbo, until the church voted it out. Maybe, you can overlook the oppression of science and general education. Maybe you do not care that the church has fought against your right to vote and your ability to care for your own body with birth control.
I ask you now to think. Think about the latest declaration from the Catholic Church – ordination of women is a grave crime under church law. Not only is this declaration made in conjunction with but is compared to the rape of an innocent child by a priest. You must now realize that you will never hold the same status as men; you will never be seen as an equal. It is time for you to stand up for yourself. It is time to take your money from the people that are holding you down. It is time for you to show your strength. It is time to use your feet and walk away from the Catholic Church. It is time to take your family, your spouse, your children and leave. If not for you, then do it for your daughters and sons. It is time for you to stand up and break the cycle. Do not let this opportunity pass. Do not let your sons grow up and oppress women and do not let your daughters be oppressed.

Skeptic Money

Comment from my bible scholar friend Ralph Nielsen on Farrell Till's errancy list.

Ralph Nielson on the gospels:

"t takes some time to unlearn what we have become accustomed to. We have to try to remember that Paul's genuine letters are not only the oldest writings in the New Testament, they are the only writings for which we know the actual author. All the others are anonymous, including the four gospels.

Then look at the gospels themselves. In the oldest, called Mark, some women come to the tomb and find it empty. A young man (angel) tells them that Jesus is no longer there but has gone north some eighty miles to Galilee. The disciples are to meet him there. But the women run away and say nothing to anyone. End of gospel.

Some years later Matthew copies much of Mark's story but writes a more interesting ending to it. This time the angel tells the women not to be afraid but to tell the disciples that they should go north to Galilee to meet Jesus. But Jesus suddenly appears and talks with the women. He also tells them to tell the disciples that they will meet him up north in Galilee. There the disciples meet him on a mountain top. Short pep talk from Jesus. End of gospel.

Later, Luke also copies much of Mark. But instead of making the disciples go up to Galilee to meet him, he meets them in Jerusalem. After a few peek-a-boo appearances, sometimes physical and sometimes not, Jesus and the disciples go out to Bethany, where Jesus is carried up from a flat earth into heaven above. End of gospel.

The Gospel of John has no ascension scene at all. After a few peek-a-boo appearances in Jerusalem we hear no more about him. End of gospel.

Another writer, in a different style of Greek, wrote an extra chapter, where Jesus treats the disciples to a fish breakfast and a short pep talk beside the Sea of Galilee. Second end of gospel.

Are these accounts about a historical person? Now don't forget: Paul wrote his letters ten years and more before the gospels were written. And Paul said absolutely nothing about a historical Jesus in Jerusalem or Galilee."

Written by "Sandy" on Farrell Till's errancy list:

***
From the classified section of the Jerusalem Post-Register-Times-Journal:

People are getting tired of the same ol', same ol' gods and demi-gods. Pilgrimages to the temples of Osiris/Bacchus/Heracles/Mithras are down. Donations are way down. Therefore, we are looking for a new deity. Qualified candidates should apply to Saul of Tarsus and demonstrate their ability to fill the job description shown below:

1. All the standard miracles, known for centuries, must be demonstrated. Water-into-wine, staves into snakes, healing the sick, curing the blind, making the lame walk, raising the dead and walking on water are required. Self-resurrection a real plus. Those unable to make fig trees bear out of season need not apply.

2. Personal charisma a job necessity. If you can't get a bunch of ignorant fishermen to follow you we aren't interested.

3. Ability to obfuscate an absolute requirement. Generations from now, people must argue over your slightest saying because no one knows what you actually meant. If you speak clearly and concisely, we don't want you.

Applicants should bring their CV and be prepared to demonstrate at least three (3) of the above miracles. If no qualified person applies for the position, I'll just make you up myself.

I have a 19th level Paladin that might qualify...Do I need to fill out an application for him or can I just hand over his character sheet for consideration?

A fundamentalist catholic posted this to Farrell's errancy list today. If you understand the subject of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy you may find this as humorous as I do:

...here is a "10 step argument for the inerrancy of the bible." I kept it short and sweet.

(1) The accounts of Christ and the early church (gospels, Acts, epistles, church fathers) purport to be and, upon examination and analysis, are in fact histories - and should be viewed at least as such, just as we view the documents of Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, etc, as histories of people and events of the ancient world.

(2) The accounts of Christ and the early church (gospels, Acts, epistles, church fathers, witness of the church in history) are at least sufficiently accurate and credible history.

(3) Given #2, one should accept as fact that
(i) Jesus Christ lived,
(ii) performed miracles,
(iii) was crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered died and was buried and on the third day rose again.
(iv) Jesus *claimed* to be divine.

(4) Given #3.ii and 3.iii one may consider a number of alternatives as to how this might be, but the claim to divinity (3.iv) is at least a reasonable explanation for these events.

(5) However compelling #4 or 3.iv may seem, these are not proofs per se (e.g., we can't *see* Jesus' divine essence in our earthly experience), the resurrection remains only a motive for credibility re the divinity of Christ.

(6) Given #5, An act of faith is required to accept 3.iv as true.

(7) An act of faith being made, one should then accept the words of Jesus because one believes him by faith to be God. What he states, we believe. What he commands, we do. What he promises, we hope for, etc.

(8) Given #7, one considers that Jesus founded a Church on Peter saying "upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" and 'whatever is bound on earth' by Peter (Mt 16:18-21) 'will be bound in heaven' etc, or what is bound by the apostles with him (Mt. 18:18).

(9) Given #8, the Church most closely associated with Peter, which believes he and his successors have this authority, teaches which books are canonical, that the canonical books are inspired, and that the canonical books are inerrant.

(10) Given #9, I accept the scriptures are inerrant based on faith in Christ and the authority of his Church.

Dear God in heaven. That is the dumbest, stupidest, stinking pile of crap I have read in a very long time.

See here.


...at St. Peter's Anglican Church in Toronto last month...St. Peter's interim pastor, Rev. Marguerite Rea, invited Donald Keith into her church. The Reverend welcomed Keith after he had been harassed by police for sitting on the church steps with his dog, Trapper -- an activity both enjoy. Because it was Keith's first time attending St. Peter's, Rev. Rea invited him up for communion. Naturally, Trapper walked up with him.

Keith rescued Trapper from death row after three previous owners gave up on the dog's separation anxiety issues. The two are now a team and go everywhere together - even church!

The Toronto Star reports Keith as stating "The whole thing was all very innocent and the joy and happiness on the face of one old lady in the front row made it all worthwhile."

...The church's Bishop Patrick Yu, along with Rev. Rea, received a complaint from an unhappy parishioner who believes a dog receiving communion is against the rules. The man has since decided to leave the church as a result.

Bishop Yu is quoted as saying, "I can see why people would be offended. It is a strange and shocking thing, and I have never heard of it happening before. I think the reverend was overcome by what I consider a misguided gesture of welcoming."

One witness, Peggy Needham, gave her own impression of Keith and Trapper strolling to the front of the church that day.
"I am sure for Marguerite that was a surprise, like it was for all of us," said Needham. "But nobody felt like it was a big deal, because it wasn't a big deal."

...Rev. Rea has apologized and Bishop Yu stated "Unless there is any further evidence that she is giving communion to animals, the matter is closed ... we are after all, in the forgiveness and repair business."

This afternoon Doug and Tamara and I went to a gathering in support of Dr. William Harrison who is ill and is retiring. It was short notice but well over a hundred showed up. For much of the last thirty years he has been perhaps the only doctor in the area providing abortion services.

I was snooping around for information on John Shelby Spong the other day and came across this book review written by Dr. Harrison eight years ago. I reveals a lot about him and how his beliefs are very much in line with us freethinkers.

***
5.0 out of 5 stars A THOUGHTFUL AND COURAGEOUS DISCOURSE, April 23, 2002

This review is from: A New Christianity for a New World: Why Traditional Faith Is Dying and How a New Faith Is Being Born (Hardcover)

"Jack Spong came to my city this weekend to give a series of 4 lectures at a local Episcopal church. Being a long time chucrh dropout (Methodist church) but accepting the premise that for millions of people a community of faith and personally meaningful religious tradition is extremely important, and having read a newspaper story which very sparingly outlined what would be the substance of Bishop Spong's lectures, I decided to commit approximately 8 hours of my weekend to hear and consider his ideas. At the first of those lectures, I bought this book and just finished reading it. Bishop Spong is a much better speaker than writer, though with this book that is not so evident as it was in the other of his books I bought and read that first day. Spong obviously loves his faith tradition, has loved being a part of that tradition and, although he recognizes that most of the premises upon which that tradition is based make absolutely no sense in a world forever changed by our knowledge of astronomic, molecular and nuclear structure, by the elucidation of genetic and biochemical data convincingly demonstrating the interrelatedness of all of life, by the knowledge of and new discoveries related to the size and age of the universe and by the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics and the fact that these theories have borne fruit which in my early lifetime were the stuff of science fiction, his purpose is to reform rather than to try to destroy that tradition. This book explores his premises and proposals in a lucid and intellgent manner which appeals especially to those millions like myself who find the language of the traditional church essentially as meaningless as the harangues of fundamentalist preachers and the performances of snake handlers and glass eaters. Although it is very late in my life for such arguments to bear significantly on the way I will view the world (since, indeed, I already shared much of his view tho' I never before knew him), I believe Spong has rendered great service to the cause of his religious tradition. We can only hope and trust that every faith tradition has somewhere in the lands they dominate, articulate, thoughtful and committed advocates like Bishop John Shelby Spong working to change those other sometimes violently militant exclusivist religions. If you call yourself a Christian (and most especially if you consider yourself a fundamentalist Christian), you owe it to yourself, to your faith and to society in general to read this book. wfh"

LINK

Obese, Stressed Clergy

A national survey in 2001 of more than 2,500 Christian religious leaders conducted by Duke Divinity School showed that 76 percent of Christian clergy were either overweight or obese, 15 percentage points higher than for the general U.S. population. And other research has shown that clergy across all faiths are succumbing to higher rates of obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and other ailments than their congregants.

"There is a deep concern about stress," Rabbi Joel Meyers, former executive vice president of the Rabbinical Assembly, the international association of Conservative rabbis, told The New York Times. "Rabbis today are expected to be the C.E.O. of the congregation and the spiritual guide, and never be out of town if somebody dies. And reply instantly to every e-mail."

Catholic priests can be especially prone to problems too, given that they are unmarried and can throw themselves into their work with no family life to provide balance -- and a tendency to consume unhealthy food on the run. The past decade of scandal and crisis has also hit priests hard. In 2006, a priest support group established the Upper Room Crisis Hotline, a toll-free number for clergy who were feeling suicidal or depressed or overwhelmed, and dioceses across the country are establishing programs to try to get priests to take care of their bodies as well as their souls.

..."Doughnuts will be the death of me," several Methodist pastors told researchers with the Duke Clergy Health Initiative, a seven-year project with Duke Divinity School that is looking at the health of United Methodist pastors in North Carolina.

See here.

Excerpt from the latest SKEPTIC magazine:

***
The Rise of the Nones

James Allan Chyene

Over the course of a mere 20 years, from 1970-1990, the Anglican Church in the UK lost one million members. Over the same period that church saw its clergy reduced by over 50,000. Other mainstream UK churches lost similarly impressive numbers of members over the same period. Only about 10% of these losses were accounted for by increased enrollments in alternative religions. The rest simply dropped out.

In 2009 the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) released data documenting a protracted decline in religious belief and commitment in the U.S. For nonbelievers of all stripes, the most striking finding was that between 1990 and 2008 the so-called Nones (people responding None, No religion, Humanistic, Ethical Culture, Agnostic, Atheist, and Secular), constituting, by 2008, 15% of the total, gained more new members than either Catholics or Protestants, not just proportionally, but in absolute terms. Extrapolating from the survey data, the authors of the ARIS report estimate that there were 19,838,000 more nonreligious persons in 2008 in the U.S. than there were in 1990. This comes close to matching the sum of the absolute increase in numbers of all Catholic (11,195,000) and all Protestant (10,980,000) sects combined over the same time period. Moreover, for these latter groups the numeric increases did not keep pace with population growth and hence translate into proportional decreases over time.

The increase of the nonreligious was found to be pervasive across U.S. society. The numbers of the unbelievers basically doubled for: White non-Hispanic, Black non-Hispanic, Hispanic, and Asian groups. This was not true for any religious group. Indeed, most denominations lost proportionally for every one of these groups. In addition, the growth of non-believers occurred in every single one of the 48 contiguous states (i.e., every state included in the survey). In other words, the trend is evident in all groups, everywhere. Moreover, as the authors of the report state: "The challenge to Christianity in the U.S. does not come from other religions but rather from a rejection of all forms of organized religion." And we may remind ourselves here that that the foregoing figures are for what is often cited as the most religious developed nation on earth - and some would omit the qualifying "developed."

***

Found it online here, with footnotes.

A lurker on Farrell Till's errancy list saw a post of mine and sent me an email with a link to his online book. It's about 62 pages so far. He's looking for constructive feedback. The following is a random excerpt showing it's style and flavor, not cherry picked. There are 62 pages of similar material. I've never seen anything quite like it and deemed it worthy of "religious quote of the day."

“God” who be cognized through “Creating, Controlling and Acting” create, control and act “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations”. “God” create the relation that “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations”, in each one of these as well as in the whole, mutually “could be together with and also should be together with and so are together with.”

These “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations” have an inborn relation that even a certain one of “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations” can not come into being without the relation that “could be together with and also should be together with and so are together with”. Each one of as well as the whole of “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations” are come into being and are continued to exist by this inborn relation.

“God” be protecting each one of as well as the whole of “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations” through “Creating, Controlling and Acting” for the relation that all Beings “could be together with and also should be together with and so are together with”.

Thus, “All the Whole Universes, All Beings of a Universe and All Relations” are protected within the relation that all Beings “could be together with and also should be together with and so are together with” as well as they, in each one and in the whole, are able to do “their own work”, and these “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations” are continued to exist.

http://multiplazas.com/

DAR
Being a novice and rather untrained in this branch of metaphysics I am having a little trouble following this. This appears to be very advance theology which may require years of training, study and solemn contemplation in order to fully grasp.

Maybe if I just read some more, and concentrate harder. Here's a little bit grabbed from page 45:

This work of “Creating, Controlling and Acting” that “let be or not be” is realized in order to keep up “the relation” that each one and all mutually “could be together with and also should be together with and so are together with” in “All the Whole Universes, All beings of a Universe and All Relations”, that is in the Whole Universes, all Galactic systems, in all of the Solar system, and in all of the Earth system, in the Earth, in the Nature, in all living beings and non-living beings, in “mankind” and in “the societies of mankind” as human beings’ collectives and in each one of human beings.

Accordingly in case of “mankind” too, “the relation” that all mutually “could be together with and also should be together with and so are together with” among individuals and collectives as a human being, like among individuals, races, tribes, peoples, nations, regional communities, among whatever social organizations, that is whatever different collectives, should be kept up and in case that this “relation” is damaged or destroyed, “God” execute the work of “Creating, Controlling and Acting” that “let be or not be” against whatever damages or destroys this “relation”, in order to restore this “relation”.

etc.

Darrel wrote:This appears to be very advance theology which may require years of training, study and solemn contemplation in order to fully grasp.

It reads in the "style" of automatically-generated pseudo-prose (similar to the automatic complaint letter generator found here) whose algorithms have been pre-programmed to be heavy on particular phrases.

Savonarola wrote:It reads in the "style" of automatically-generated pseudo-prose

DAR
Yes I thought of that. But I think this is the real deal.