fayfreethinkers.com

Damn! I forgot to sign in.

I posted the message above.

I agree with James about the necessity for collective self-defense and social organization (government in the weak Jeffersonian sense.) He doesn't know what anarchism is yet; I hope we can discuss it after he reads something about it. Per point 3 below, the US military is not an organization engaged only in collective self-defense - not even close. It is a criminal organization of aggression and has been for years. His reasons for joining the murder gang are quite understandable, but they do not absolve him of the moral guilt for voluntarily joining such a group. I'd cut some slack if he were forced to join (drafted.) In return for joining a murder gang, he got some college and other goodies. It is immoral no matter what the personal payoff.

Sav wrote:I think that Hogeye is so far off base here that it should be easy to counter his points without resorting to namecalling.

Let me list some of my points to make it easier to attempt refutation:

1) It is stupid to sell yourself into indentured servitude.
Comment1: If you're a starving kid in a third-world country, I may give you a pass on this.
Comment2: If you hold a) autonomy to be a moral virtue or b) selling an inalienable quality to be fraudulent, you may also consider it immoral.

1.1) Joining the military is not like other employment contracts - it is a form of indentured servitude. You may not simply quit (perhaps owing compension) like any other job; such quitting from the military generally gets you imprisoned or executed, depending on the timing.

2) Committing murder, or aiding and abetting such, is immoral.

2.1) Killing non-criminal strangers is immoral ("murder") unless in self-defense (or defense of innocent third parties.)

2.2) Permission and/or encouragment from the State does not absolve one of moral responsibility for murder.

3) The US military is an aggressive force, and hasn't been used for significant defensive action in over half a century.

3.1) The US military routinely engages in military actions, and maintains overseas bases and personnel, which do not protect territorial US ("defense purposes.")

3.2 The US military routinely murders non-combatants, and uses non-targeted weapons killing civilians (e.g. aerial bombing, rockets shot into civilian neighborhoods, etc.) Such murders have been perpetrated in Nicaragua, Bosnia, Serbia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Iraq to name just a few.

4) The facts cited in (3) being well-known and documented, those who voluntarily join the military are knowingly aiding and abetting such murders.

Well, that's a good start. It may not be polite to call murderers for the State "murderers," but I'm more concerned with truth and preventing such murders in the future than being polite. We must let youngsters know the truth, so they don't join the murder gangs. Playing the PC flaghumper just guarantees that they'll fall for the same thing for the next war, the next politically created "crisis" that comes along. I would prefer to try to prevent the next Vietnam, Kosevo, Iraq, than patriotically pass on the same braindead statist pabulum. Thus I try to change the culture of worship of state-hired murderers to good, healthy disdain.

Oh Hogeye, Hogeye, Hogeye.

You really had me going there for a couple of days. I mean - WOW - I was actually taking you seriously. Worst of all, I let myself get all worked up over your slippery insults . . . and then I found your website: what a revelation! I have to thank you for so clearly defining your hypocritical and delusional world.

So . . . let's get started, shall we? For those interested, Hogeye's website is http://www.ozarkia.net/bill

_____________________________________________________________

Hogeye wrote:I appreciate the benefits of voluntary society (insofar as it is voluntary), but have nothing but contempt for that destroyer of society - the State.

Hogeye wrote:No, but you voluntarily joined a gang who did these things. You aided and abetted in mass murder. This is morally blameworthy.

Under the song category, "Every Dead Narc is One Small Step for Freedom", I find the following (this is a page dedicated to calling for the murder of Arkansas's Asa Hutchinson):

The last two verses:
"Don't forget that every person
Has a right to self defense.
If aggressor wears a uniform
It makes no difference.
A kidnapper is a kidnapper,
A brute with badge still brute.
And I say if you get a half a change
Put a gun to his head and shoot.

The only good narc is a dead narc
Know how to garrote.
If a narc should turn his back to you
I beg you: slit his throat.
One less serial kidnapper
To prey on society
Send that brown-shirt Nazi thug
To eternity."

And the following bit of mind-boggling commentary: "It would be poetic justice if Hutchinson were sent to prison, broom-handle butt-raped by every soul he put there, and then have his throat slit. We'll have to settle for the hope that some courageous warrior puts a bullet through his brain. Perhaps some pain-racked AIDS patient deprived of medicinal marijuana will commit a last heroic act of terrorcide and blow Asa's ass away. Hogeye Bill sez, 'Die narc scum!' "

Hmm, lovely! So . . . maybe we're not so different after all, Hogeye. Except, of course, that I'm not a hypocrite.

According to you, my husband and I are accessories to mass murder - but it appears that you aren't all that opposed to certain kinds of killing either, are you? One of the few differences is that while my husband and I would do it ourselves in direct defense of ourselves, our family, and our country while serving in the military - you wouldn't have the guts to do it yourself: no, you call upon anybody else to "slit" Hutchinson's throat - even exhorting a person ill with AIDS to commit cold-blooded murder. Amazing.

Oh - and that prison rape imagery is a really nice touch, too.

_____________________________________________________________

Speaking of porn, I have to congratulate you on achieving what must surely be the most revolting and vulgar "Veterans Day Page" EVER. We all know where you find those kinds of pictures - right, Hogeye? Must be taking some time out from studying chess to find that little gem of utter vileness. Tell me, did your father - the WWII vet - get to see that? If so, he must have been very proud. Your mother, the former mayor of Fayetteville, too. I would be just beaming with pride to know my son posted such a photo. (That NWAnews.com article on 11/20/06 about your mother was quite enlightening.)

Also, you sure put a lot of effort into that whole page dedicated to marijuana. Too bad you don't, you know, actually work that hard. It's not bad, Hogeye. You really ought to try joining us out here in the real, <lucid> world sometime. Ah, c'mon - be brave.

_____________________________________________________________

Hogeye wrote:Your willingness to put the interests of the murder gang above your own child speaks for itself.

I dare say, Hogeye, that my son has turned out quite well. I'm pretty sure a battalion of mental-health professionals would attest to that. On the other hand, after having perused your website - which is full of the most violent, ugly, hateful material imaginable . . . I doubt the same could be said of you.

_____________________________________________________________

Again - to all readers of this forum: if you are tempted to think that I have, perhaps, exaggerated the stuff copied here from Hogeye's website, I invite you to visit that site and judge for yourself.

http://www.ozarkia.net/bill

So - I feel we're done here, Hogeye. After putting you and your "philosophies" in perspective, I now see that conversing with you is simply unworthy of any truly healthy, thinking person. I shan't waste another syllable.

WindFem3 wrote:According to you, my husband and I are accessories to mass murder - but it appears that you aren't all that opposed to certain kinds of killing either, are you?

Of course not. As I wrote in the earlier post to your husband, I am not against killing in self-defense, or in defense of innocent others. Murder is defined as immoral killing. Why am I not surprised that someone who joined a murder gang (and has zero remorse) doesn't make that distinction?

For those who want to hear my song, here's the link: Every Dead Narc is One Small Step for Freedom. Enjoy!

There is nothing hypocritical about holding killing in defense to be morally permissable, but killing strangers who have done no harm as immoral. But since you apparently see no difference between self-defense and homicidal aggression, that's probably over your head.

Oh, here's my wonderful anti-military recruitment poster that WindFem likes so much. Here's an 11x17 pdf version. If that doesn't convince your basic high school milfare recruitment target not to join, nothing will!

And here's a text anti-recruitment flier I put on the FHS bulletin board: Would You Sell Yourself Into Slavery? You can access various peace and anti-recruitment posters from this page, including the infamous Peace Protest Flier (pdf) that got me kicked out of Omni.

Use and distribute these as you wish - that's what they're for.

James wrote:This idea of anarchy is just as unworkable as communism.

DAR
James, you are far to kind to this anarchy nonsense. Millions of people believe in and would choose communism. All I have ever seen for anarchy is spoiled rich kid brats sitting in the comfy lap of collectivism whining about the joys of some fantasy bullshit land that has never, will never, and can never exist. Our resident anarchist wannabe has nothing but excuses for why he must stay and suffer in this miserable statist place but surely they can't all be such blithering hypocrites? Is there not some place somewhere, where there is an honest consistent anarchist living his state free dream, on purpose? I doubt it.
It's the ultimate irony and hypocrisy. They gleefully mooch parasitically on the teat they condemn.
More later.

D.

Hogeye wrote:For those who want to hear my song, here's the link: Every Dead Narc is One Small Step for Freedom. Enjoy!

James, it looks like Hogeye is living out your dream of being a songwriter/chessmaster.

There but for the grace of God goes James.

Of course, it's not too late for you to become the next Hogeye.

Doug wrote:There but for the grace of God goes James.

Now I know you don't mean that, Doug.

Doug wrote:Of course, it's not too late for you to become the next Hogeye.

And in such case, divorce would be imminent . . .

Darrel,

Well, I have tried to put some effort into reading up Hogeye's "Anarchist-Capitalist Manifesto" but it come across as double speak. The use of a 100 words when 10 should do makes me very suspect. As I said earlier I live in the here and now and have chosen to have a family and a career which means that I work within the system at hand. I also participate, support, and defend that system. I try to do my part to help make the system work toward a goal that causes the least harm to the people and environment around me, my family, and my tribe.

One thing I did notice about the "Manifesto" is that with Hogeye's vision of anarchy there does not seem to be any provisions for change. At least with our current Democratic system change maybe slow but it does happen. Sometimes for the better, such as women's suffrage. Sometimes bad, i.e. the war in Iraq. But eventually we get back to a moderate position and correct those wrong turns that we've taken. When we get on the right track and move in a direction that is more progressive, those changes are the kinds that last.

It is unfortunate that even though this is a free thinking forum that is open to free thought we still have those that will take the "shout-you-down" aproach when you disagree with their position. In other words "you can have free thought as long as it agrees with my free thought". Okay, so once again I am biased and maybe Sherry is as guilty as anyone else - but the fact is she's RIGHT in this case. Bottom line: I will not be taking up Hogeye's anarchist cause.

Doug,

You are right: since I am a "slave to the state" I have not achieved all of my dreams. When I was a young boy on the farm I dreamed of writing songs, becoming a chess master, dabbling in recreational pharmacy, and living off the real work of other people!

JamesH wrote:Doug,

You are right: since I am a "slave to the state" I have not achieved all of my dreams. When I was a young boy on the farm I dreamed of writing songs, becoming a chess master, dabbling in recreational pharmacy, and living off the real work of other people!

DOUG
I bet your mother's basement is looking pretty good now, isn't it? With all those 8-track tapes...

James wrote:One thing I did notice about the "Manifesto" is that with Hogeye's vision of anarchy there does not seem to be any provisions for change.

This comment is puzzling, since statelessness allows individuals to change all they want without interference from a State. It even allows people to band together in a "Democratic system" if they choose (though they may not force others to participate.)

James, the Manifesto is not an anarchist primer. What you should really read is my recently completed Against Authority. Or maybe the Anarcho-capitalist FAQ.

Also, we try (sometimes unsuccessfully like now) to stay on topic within a thread, so please comment about anarchism in the Against Authority thread instead of here. Maybe you can explain your "provisions for change" point.