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Darrel wrote:Whenever I say "that's nice" it's almost always meant in the sense of "that's nice... but... any good reason to believe such rubbish?"

And that's obvious by how you always follow that sentence. That said, my point stands. It's not at all nice to think that we're puppets in some deity's self-indulgent quest for identity. You give a great example why:

Darrel wrote:[God] couldn't have built a really good emulation machine to experience what being tortured or squished in a collapsed building is like, he needs to have people really going through torture and being squished. Everyday, all the time.

It fails to be "nice" because it both (a) belittles humanity and (b) isn't true.

I'd also like to comment on:

Darrel wrote:It's basically the primitive mind trying to make sense of a world that doesn't make sense. The seed of all religion.

The irony is that the world starts making a whole lot more sense when one abandons the notion that a deity has determined a purpose for every happening on the planet. It's a travesty that these people don't realize it.

"Give meaning" might work better in my above than, "make sense."

Darrel wrote:

graybear13 wrote: GRAY
If this were merely a material universe
and man only a machine, such a man would be
wholly unable to recognize himself as a
machine,

DAR
Why is that?

GRAY
and likewise would such a machine-man
be wholly unconscious of the fact of the
existence of such a material universe.

DAR
And beyond mere assertion your evidence for this is... what?

D.

To me it is selfevident.

"No man can reveal to you aught but that
which already lies half asleep in the dawn-
ing of your knowledge." Gibran

graybear13 wrote:To me it is selfevident.

Then there is something amiss with your self.

DAR
And beyond mere assertion your evidence for this is... what?

GRAY
To me it is selfevident.

DAR
So the argument from "personal experience."

I've never heard that one before!

D.
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"There is, however, no propriety in wasting any time about the science of metaphysics. I will give you my definition of metaphysics: Two fools get together; each admits what neither can prove, and thereupon both of them say, "hence we infer." That is all there is of metaphysics." --Robert Ingersoll

Savonarola wrote:Then there is something amiss with your self.

That's about what I would expect from you.

Here...wait a minute...let me get some mud out of my eye

graybear13 wrote: To me it is selfevident.

"No man can reveal to you aught but that
which already lies half asleep in the dawn-
ing of your knowledge." Gibran

DOUG
Once you have reached the point where you appeal to something as being self-evident, especially to opponents who seem to disagree with your basic outlook, you have reached the end of you argument. Nothing more can be said to defend your views.

But be aware that when you appeal to self-evident views, you are using an appeal that can be used to "justify" anything, including misogyny, racism, etc. It is an appeal of last resort, and one who uses it can never expect to be convincing except when preaching to the converted.

Doug wrote:

graybear13 wrote: To me it is selfevident.

"No man can reveal to you aught but that
which already lies half asleep in the dawn-
ing of your knowledge." Gibran

DOUG
Once you have reached the point where you appeal to something as being self-evident, especially to opponents who seem to disagree with your basic outlook, you have reached the end of you argument. Nothing more can be said to defend your views.

But be aware that when you appeal to self-evident views, you are using an appeal that can be used to "justify" anything, including misogyny, racism, etc. It is an appeal of last resort, and one who uses it can never expect to be convincing except when preaching to the converted.

There is no point in making an argument to someone who is completely close-minded to what you have to say.

graybear13 wrote:There is no point in making an argument to someone who is completely close-minded to what you have to say.

DOUG
It is not a matter of being close-minded. It is a matter of whether you can provide good evidence for your claims. You can't.

So, close-minded or open-minded, you cannot expect rational, intelligent, informed people to agree with you if you cannot make a case showing that your claims are true.

Graybear wrote:There is no point in making an argument to someone who is completely close-minded to what you have to say.

DAR
I am entirely open to hearing arguments supporting your assertion. That's why I asked:

"Do you have any reason anyone should think this is true?"

But rather than even attempt to provide this, you say there is no point in sharing it because... I'm completely close minded.

Do you really think anyone is going to buy that?

D.

graybear13 wrote:That's about what I would expect from you.

Good. I should be expected to dismiss stupidity in a way that omits sugarcoating. After all, you're not a baby... well, in physical age, anyway. Doug and Darrel have beaten me to explaining why we're right.

kwlyon wrote:

graybear13 wrote: What we experience, God experiences

So you are a pantheistic deist of sorts? I am okay with this I suppose. I see no reason to believe in such a being however it is not contradicted by the nature of the reality we find ourselves in as far as I can tell.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I guess I'm christian with a pantheistic twist. But, when you get right down to it, I'm pretty damned confussed just like the rest of us.

gray

Savonarola wrote:

graybear13 wrote:That's about what I would expect from you.

Good. I should be expected to dismiss stupidity in a way that omits sugarcoating. After all, you're not a baby... well, in physical age, anyway. Doug and Darrel have beaten me to explaining why we're right.

You, sir, have a very ugly and mean spirit.

It is fitting that you are a prophet of atheist/materialism.

The ugliness of your worship of materialism, spiritual blindness,
is reflected in your soul.

I feel sorry for you.

graybear13 wrote:
Hi Kevin,

I guess I'm christian with a pantheistic twist. But, when you get right down to it, I'm pretty damned confussed just like the rest of us.

gray

I understand entirely. The universe is a rather confusing thing of which to be a part.

Kevin

graybear13 wrote:It is fitting that you are a prophet of atheist/materialism.
The ugliness of your worship of materialism, spiritual blindness,
is reflected in your soul.(

DOUG writes:
Atheism is not ugly. In fact, it is more respectful of the awe-inspiring nature of the universe than theism. We don't need a spirit in the universe to make it wonderful.

graybear13 wrote:It is fitting that you are a prophet of atheist/materialism.
The ugliness of your worship of materialism, spiritual blindness,
is reflected in your soul.(

DAR
Most people like a little more sugar on the medicine.

DOUG writes:
Atheism is not ugly. In fact, it is more respectful of the awe-inspiring nature of the universe than theism. We don't need a spirit in the universe to make it wonderful.

DAR
Reminds me of this quote:

“I try to read and stay informed on as broad a range of subjects as I can, and to the devotees of superstition and pseudoscience, let me just say this: you don't know what you're missing. The universe is a grander, stranger, more majestic and more mysterious place than any human being has ever imagined, or can imagine. The unsubstantiated claims and inventions of people, as wondrous as you may find them, don't come close to doing justice to reality as it truly is. At what other age in human history have you been able to look on a shooting star or a volcano and know what it really is? In what other age has anyone been able to see the Earth rise in the night sky from the surface of the Moon? In what other age did we understand the molecular roots of life, the building blocks of matter, the power sources of the stars?

It was not crystals or prayer nor Tarot cards that brought us these things. It was not superstition that was responsible, nor mysticism, nor credulous acceptance of extraordinary and unverified claims. It is the scientific method — institutionalized skepticism, rigorously and comprehensively applied — that has given rise to these wonders of understanding and accomplishment. We can either stay on that path, and some day realize the full potential we've only begun to tap — or we can sink back into the darkness of unreason, and stay frightened, brutish, short-lived and ignorant. I know which path I choose to take.” -- Adam Marczyk, age 21

graybear13 wrote:You, sir, have a very ugly and mean spirit.

You seem to have a problem distinguishing between "a very ugly and mean spirit" and "the belief that some views truly are contemptible and/or absurd and worthy of ridicule."

It is fitting that you are a prophet of atheist/materialism.

I agree! ... well, on the atheist part. (More on the other below.) I wish that more people were more like me. The amount of stupidity, hatred, and xenophobia in the world would be virtually nonexistent.

graybear13 wrote:The ugliness of your worship of materialism, spiritual blindness,
is reflected in your soul.

I don't worship materialism. I don't even worship material. Just because I don't worship an invisible sky man doesn't mean I must worship something else, let alone something (or the) material.

graybear13 wrote:I feel sorry for you.

Another foolish approach. I have a good job where I'm liked and respected by bosses, colleagues, and subordinates alike. I get to teach people critical thinking skills so that they end up more like me than like you. I suspect that you don't quite understand how rewarding that is.

Savonarola wrote:You seem to have a problem distinguishing between "a very ugly and mean spirit" and "the belief that some views truly are contemptible and/or absurd and worthy of ridicule."

I agree! ... well, on the atheist part. (More on the other below.) I wish that more people were more like me. The amount of stupidity, hatred, and xenophobia in the world would be virtually nonexistent.

I don't worship materialism. I don't even worship material. Just because I don't worship an invisible sky man doesn't mean I must worship something else, let alone something (or the) material

Another foolish approach. I have a good job where I'm liked and respected by bosses, colleagues, and subordinates alike. I get to teach people critical thinking skills so that they end up more like me than like you. I suspect that you don't quite understand how rewarding that is.

What an ego...I would like to buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think you are worth.

It is really scary to think of young impressionable minds coming before you to be brain-washed and taught that religious faith is foolishness.

The ardent humble devotion (worship) to materialism can be a beautiful thing if it doesn't exclude the possibility of the existence of God.

"Better that science should be devoted to the
destruction of superstition rather than attempting
the overthrow of religious faith---human belief
in spiritual realities and devine values."

graybear13 wrote:What an ego...I would like to buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think you are worth.

Ah, so you believe in buying and selling people. Good to know.

graybear13 wrote:It is really scary to think of young impressionable minds coming before you to be brain-washed and taught that religious faith is foolishness.

I teach nothing of the sort.

graybear13 wrote:The ardent humble devotion (worship) to materialism can be a beautiful thing if it doesn't exclude the possibility of the existence of God.

How many times do I have to tell you that I don't worship materialism? Do you have trouble reading, graybear?

graybear13 wrote: "Better that science should be devoted to the
destruction of superstition rather than attempting
the overthrow of religious faith

DAR
Faith, with regard to claims about how the world works, is believing something without good reasons. That's worth overthrowing.

---human belief
in spiritual realities

DAR
Spiritual realities? Something isn't made more real by calling it a reality. What is a "spiritual reality?" Can you show it's real? That's what matters.

and devine values."

DAR
Divine value? What is a "divine" value? Do people just make them up just like everything else with regard to the spirit world?

D.
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"Religion is still parasitic in the interstices of our knowledge which have not yet been filled. Like bed-bugs in the cracks of walls and furniture, miracles lurk in the lacunae of science. The scientist plasters up these cracks in our knowledge; the more militant Rationalist swats the bugs in the open. Both have their proper sphere and they should realize that they are allies." --John Haldane