RW taxcuts done with Soc Security receipts

[LaWood]

_Receipts (millions of $)_
2005 . . . . . 2,153,859
2004 . . . . . 1,880,279
2003 . . . . . 1,782,532
2002 . . . . . 1,853,395
2001 . . . . . 1,991,426
2000 . . . . . 2,025,457
1999 . . . . . 1,827,645

Social Insurance taxes as a percentage of overall receipts:
2000 - 32.23%
2005 - 36.87%
That would be an increase of 14.4%.

Individual income taxes as a percentage of overall receipts:
2000 - 49.59%
2005 - 43.05%
That would be a decrease of 13.19%.

The point from above being that the Social Security Trust fund has been 'raided' to the tune of $2 trillion dollars and that the Bush New Way Forward to Oblivion would suck another TRILLION DOLLARS out of the trust fund over the next four years to 'balance the budget' - leaving a $3 trillion (and UP!) debt to be paid off by future taxpayers.

The Federal Debt_1-25-07
$8.680 trillion

The Federal Debt_BD (before Dubya)
$5.674 trillion

Source: White House Office of the Budget

This is how Rwingnuts have enslaved working folks and the unfortunate
"great unread" will never know, never understand, never question.
When their Social Security fails to materialize at age 62-65 just tell them to thank abortion and gay marriage and preachers like Armani Ronnie whose $200K salary was protected by the tax cuts and who will recieve a large retirement from the Southern Baptist Association.
_

[Hogeye]

Earth to LaWood: There is no Social Security trust fund. All money plundered using the social security excuse goes into the general fund. There does not exist any investment analogous to private pension funds. The only "assets" the so-called SS trust fund has is govt IOUs written to itself. Face it: SS is simply a govt-run Ponzi scheme.

Thus, your suggestion that the govt should write more IOUs to itself (so it wouldn't be "raiding" one nominal accout for another) is superficial and doesn't address the core problem. The notion that writing more bogus IOUs to the SS trust fund account would do anything to stop the plunder of working people is mistaken. You are correct that the SS system will go bust, but it will be because all Ponzi shemes must eventually go bust due to an insufficient number of patsies, not because it didn't write enough bogus IOUs.

[Doug]

Earth to LaWood: There is no Social Security trust fund. All money plundered using the social security excuse goes into the general fund. There does not exist any investment analogous to private pension funds. The only "assets" the so-called SS trust fund has is govt IOUs written to itself. Face it: SS is simply a govt-run Ponzi scheme.

DOUG
So what was the surplus during the Clinton era, just a surplus of the IOU's?

[Hogeye]

We're discussing the Social Security "trust fund" here, Doug. If you want to talk about what this or that politician did, or general govt income vs expenditures, please start a new thread.

[LaWood]

<insult removed>

No where in my post is the mention of "trust funds."
The actual term used is "reciepts" (see above). They are taking receipts from
Soc. Security contributions and putting them into the general
revenues. That's the entire puropose for posting the info.

Just make allowances for the deranged and let them howl from the basement when their protective masks are removed.

George Windgate Bush has said that U.S. Treasury Notes owed to Soc Secur
are 'worthless peices of paper" but G.W.B. rarely speaks a word of truth which most sane people either knew or have come to know. Treasury Notes represent obligations of the U.S. and billions of dollars of them are held by foreign banks, governments and countless corporations.

Edited by Savonarola 20070125 2147: removed insult

[Hogeye]

No where in my post is the mention of "trust funds."

Ahem...

The point from above being that the Social Security Trust fund has been 'raided' to the tune of $2 trillion dollars...

For those who don't get it: The SS "trust fund" is not backed (as any reputable trust or pension fund is) by stocks or securities of independent (and hopefully diverse) entities. The SS "trust fund" is backed by bonds from the US government! Think about that - the government is basically writing IOUs to itself and calling this "backing."

Perhaps an example would help. Suppose LaWood had been paying me $100/mo for ten years for his pension fund. He asks me how his fund is doing, and I tell him that, not only is his paid $12,000 safe, but the fund has increased to $20,000. He asks me what type of securities are in the fund. I tell him that the whole fund is in Hogeye Bill Bonds. I explain that HBBonds give good interest. I explain that, whenever I need some money, I write an IOU to his fund (which I call HBBonds since that sounds better) and take the money. I'm unemployed and have no way to replace the HBBonds with real investments, but I swear I'm a good counterfeiter and could create paper money that people will accept. And I have other people paying into the account, new patsies. So don't worry.

This is exactly what the government does with Social Security. It's a classic Ponzi scheme, which will break down when the demographics hit (not enough youngsters to rob), or the young simply rebel. SS victims might get paid, but only in hyperinflated dollars worth a fraction of what was put in.

Anyway, LaWood's concern that fraudulent IOUs aren't being put into the SS "fund" misses the deeper point - that the whole thing is a scam.

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Actually the Social Security "trust" by whatever name was set up in the 1980s and is backed by treasury bonds. Those bonds are predominently "loaned" to the general fund at 3% interest. They are paid back as part of the debt. The only relationship to a "ponzi scheme" Social Security has is that current worker inputs pay for current retiree benefits. That's been true since 1940 (prior to that benefits came out of the general fund). It's also been true that between 1940 and the 1980's "reform" inputs were consistently been greater than benefits, and the extra has gone into general fund. The inputs are still greater than benefits, but the current excess is "loaned" to the general fund instead of being "given" to the general fund. The only way Social Security - as it was set up or as it is now - could fail is if America quit having workers. Ain't gonna happen. To destroy Social Security will require something like W's "healthcare plan" (offered in the recent state of the union speech) that diverts payroll taxes ("investment" into the Social Security empolyer-matched retirement/disability life annuity plan & Medicare) to remiburse purchases of private medical insurance - or privatization.

[Hogeye]

Actually the Social Security "trust" by whatever name was set up in the 1980s and is backed by treasury bonds.

Exactly! That's just what I said - government IOUs to itself.

The only relationship to a "ponzi scheme" Social Security has is that current worker inputs pay for current retiree benefits.

Exactly - an intergenerational Ponzi scheme. The new guys paying for the earlier guys is precisely what a Ponzi scheme is.

It seems we agree on the facts, but you are loathe to call a spade a spade. You are reluctant to admit that t-bonds are govt IOUs and that funding through new workers constitutes a Ponzi scheme.

The only way Social Security - as it was set up or as it is now - could fail is if America quit having workers.

No, it can fail because there are not enough current workers to pay the promised benefits to the retired workers - the same reason chain letters fail. E.g. When the mass of "baby boomers" retire. It can of course be "saved" by hyperinflation, when the retirees will receive only a small portion of what they put in. Also, one can't automatically assume that the new generation of workers will submit to being plundered for the benefit of geezers.

[Barbara Fitzpatrick]

Don't look at population for this - although I don't think there will be as many Boomers retiring as is projected because a sizable number are killing themselves off through poor eating habits. The Boomers are like a hop toad going down a garter snake - a big lump that doesn't last long and gets smaller as it goes down. Look at jobs. Whether or not Americans are holding the jobs, the jobs will be filled. Whoever fills those jobs - citizens or immigrants (legal or otherwise) will be paying SS taxes.

As to the gov't paying itself - all large organizations departmentalize. When they do so, money is divided up to go for various purposes and if a service is done by one department for another department, money is transfered accordingly, just as if the job had been outsourced. Nothing unusual about that. The fact is more money is coming in to SS than is going out of SS. That is projected to change, but that isn't necessarily what will happen. True creation of jobs will not only turn our economy around, it will make the supposed SS crisis total nonsense. As it is, it's already partly nonsense, because even if there is a temporary "excess" of retirees, it is only temporary.

[Hogeye]

As to the gov't paying itself - all large organizations departmentalize. When they do so, money is divided up to go for various purposes and if a service is done by one department for another department, money is transfered accordingly.

Yes, money, not IOU's written on itself. You keep avoiding the writing IOUs to itself issue.

Even if there is a temporary "excess" of retirees, it is only temporary.

Yes, and even if a chain letter has a "temporary excess" of passers, it is only temporary. Actuarially, SS is unsound; any private pension firm which used similar practices would have its handlers imprisoned for fraud.