Theism explains our existence better than Atheism ?

[Dardedar]

I would absolutely worship him/her/it if that got his roxs off and would assure me a place in "heaven". In fact, I am a little concerned about exactly what lengths I might go to in order to appease such a deity.

DAR
That gives me an idea. Even better than just indulging Yahweh with a bit of the old scrape and grovel, once Achsah demonstrates the existence of his God, I'll raise the bar a little. I know what He really likes. A good goat sacrifice. He's very traditional, old school even and everyone knows there isn't anything the creator of the universe likes more than a good strong sniff of roasted goat.



"Could a being create a hundred billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, and then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?"

That makes sense doesn't it?

D.
----------------------
That's my goat Gomer.

[Savonarola]

You lie about what science says,

I guess you know, we have nothing to say to each other anymore, don't you ?

You had very little to say to me at all, as evidenced by your evasion of my points. I suspect, of course, that this is because you had no response to them.
You had very little truthful to say to anyone. If your points were valid, then you'd present them without lying.

I'm a big believer in calling a spade a spade. You lied repeatedly, so I called you a liar. I warned you that that's how it works here. What are you going to do, run away and tell all your friends that we're unfair because we don't let you lie?

[kwlyon]

That gives me an idea. Even better than just indulging Yahweh with a bit of the old scrape and grovel, once Achsah demonstrates the existence of his God, I'll raise the bar a little. I know what He really likes. A good goat sacrifice. He's very traditional, old school even and everyone knows there isn't anything the creator of the universe likes more than a good strong sniff of roasted goat.

I am quite fond of goats...Let us hope god is not as evil as the christians make him out to be.

[kwlyon]

What are you going to do, run away and tell all your friends that we're unfair because we don't let you lie?

Nope, he'll run away and tell all his friends we are closed minded and hate the idea of having to be subject to the will of god. Thus we are blinded by our own hatred and rejected his solid arguments. Oh, and we kept changing the subject and made up absurd "facts" off hand to bolster our feeble arguments. Projection is 9/10ths of the creationist law.

[Dardedar]

I am quite fond of goats...

DAR
Well then you should come and visit my goats. I have nine. And they like visitors. They are quite the characters.

KEV
Let us hope god is not as evil as the christians make him out to be.

DAR
That hardly seems possible (completely aside from that bit about him not existing).

D.

[kwlyon]

That hardly seems possible (completely aside from that bit about him not existing).

D.

I am not about to assert that a god does not exist...I will, however, concede that it seems quite improbable. If there is a "god" of some kind, it certainly is not going to be what any of us expect and will almost certainly not be the least bit concerned with, or even aware of us. God is probably the most ill defined word in the whole of human linguistics.

Oh, and I would LOVE to visit the smelly buddies!

[Dardedar]

God is probably the most ill defined word in the whole of human linguistics.

DAR
I'll tell you what God is. God is human ignorance personified, put on a pedestal and worshiped.

Coach to christian debate team: "Okay men, let's win one for the gapper."

D.
-------------
"Religion is still parasitic in the interstices of our knowledge which have not yet been filled. Like bed-bugs in the cracks of walls and furniture, miracles lurk in the lacunae of science. The scientist plasters up these cracks in our knowledge; the more militant Rationalist swats the bugs in the open. Both have their proper sphere and they should realize that they are allies." --John Haldane in "Science and Life: Essays of a Rationalist"

[kwlyon]

I'll tell you what God is. God is human ignorance personified, put on a pedestal and worshiped.

"

This is an apt, practical definition.

[tmiller51]

Back to the subject of the "finely tuned universe" and I know he's gone, but that's hardly settled science. I read this a while ago which explores the possibility that the conditions for life in a universe are not necessarily so rare. (Sorry, the link only goes to a "preview" article, not the whole thing). If you search in Google for the article title you can find a .pdf of the whole article.

Tim

[Dardedar]

Back to the subject of the "finely tuned universe" and I know he's gone, but that's hardly settled science.
Tim

DAR
Right. Let's go back to his horribly worded set up for this: "do you aknowledge, established science accepts the universe is finetuned to host life, or not ?"

If you state it as a proposition his question begging is more evident. Here is what he believes and meant to claim:

"Established science accepts the universe is fine tuned to host life."

No it does not. At best he could get, perhaps, "the universe appears fine tuned to host life." This is completely different. How things appear is not necessarily how they are. Hence the phrase, appearances can be deceiving. Science is all about discerning the real situation from what something may at first appear to be. Blood letting appeared to be a useful medical remedy but that was because we didn't know how to properly account for the fact that people usually get better on their own. Snowflakes appear to be individually created by an artist but that's not right either. We have natural explanations for that process. And on and on. As to the universe, at best it appears to be fine tuned but that may only be true in the sense that a magician appears to cut the lady in half.

He quotes Paul Davies (who is not religious and does not believe in God): "It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe. The impression of design is overwhelming.”

Taken in isolation without context it looks like Davies is supporting him. But if he would have read carefully and without his faith goggles on he would have noticed the "seems as though" and the "impression." That's the part he doesn't want to see. For all we know Davies may have went on to say, "this may only be an appearance, here are some possible naturalistic explanations for this appearance." Apparently Davies knows of some naturalistic explanations because none of his data has led him to the belief there is a God! Perhaps Achsah thinks he understands Davies science better than Davies does.

We appear to be designed for our environment but that's because we were designed BY our environment. Same with the universe.

All this guy had was cliche's he found on his favorite "heavenforum" site. He reads that stuff, with some Strobel on top and becomes convinced he is positions are invincible. But he forgets to look at the counter arguments before we staggers out to the freethought front lines. Then, faced with informed opposition he quickly resorts to quote dumping, piling on and evasion. That's much easier than learning something new.

All of these references to Tipler (agnostic), Paul Davies (agnostic), Francis Crick, Fred Hoyle (who never did accept the Big Bang correct me if I'm wrong), Wernher von Braun, Hawking (atheist) etc. remind me of my old JW days. The Watchtower loved to quote these guys. Little snippets, no context, no references. I think these guys liked to put these provocative comments in there to bait the God people and get them to quote them and buy their books.

D.
--------------------
Incidentally, Frank Tipler has the credentials but he is in fact a nut. I read his 1997 book "The Physics of Immortality" and he argued for the following:

a) anything simulated, down to the atomic level, is actually that thing, not a simulation
b) computers will be so powerful in the future they will be able to simulate all possible past events down to the spin of each electron
c) the people in the future will want to do this and thus resurrect all of us via computer simulation

So Kevin, don't worry, Tipler says you will be resurrected by a computer in the future. No, really.

Amazon link

[Doug]

Yumm! Did Anyone Say Cabrito? The Smell That Saved the World

"Could a being create a hundred billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, and then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?"

In fact, the Bible says that God so loved the smell of burning flesh that it prompted him to promise never to destroy all living creatures.

After Noah landed the ark...

"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." (Gen. 8:20-21)

And Leviticus 1:9:
[The priest] is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD."

Leviticus 17:6 also tells us how burnt offerings will pacify YHWH, the God of the Bible:
"The priest is to sprinkle the blood against the altar of the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and burn the fat as an aroma pleasing to the LORD."

And Numbers 18:17 "But the firstborn of an ox or the firstborn of a sheep or the firstborn of a goat, you shall not redeem; they are holy. You shall sprinkle their blood on the altar and shall offer up their fat in smoke as an offering by fire, for a soothing aroma to the LORD.

Just a Few of the Many Other Verses on How YHWH Loves This Smell:
Leviticus 1:13 but the innards and the legs he shall wash with water. The priest shall offer the whole, and burn it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, of a pleasant aroma to Yahweh.

Leviticus 1:17 He shall tear it by its wings, but shall not divide it apart. The priest shall burn it on the altar, on the wood that is on the fire. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, of a pleasant aroma to Yahweh.

Leviticus 3:16 The priest shall burn them on the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire, for a pleasant aroma; all the fat is Yahweh's.

Leviticus 4:31 All its fat he shall take away, like the fat is taken away from off of the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasant aroma to Yahweh; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Leviticus 8:21 He washed the innards and the legs with water; and Moses burned the whole ram on the altar. It was a burnt offering for a pleasant aroma. It was an offering made by fire to Yahweh; as Yahweh commanded Moses.

Leviticus 26:31 I will lay your cities waste, and will bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not take delight in the sweet fragrance of your offerings.

Numbers 15:3 and will make an offering by fire to Yahweh, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice, to accomplish a vow, or as a freewill offering, or in your set feasts, to make a pleasant aroma to Yahweh, of the herd, or of the flock;

Pile them On..!
Leviticus 23:18 You shall present with the bread seven lambs without blemish a year old, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be a burnt offering to Yahweh, with their meal offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of a sweet aroma to Yahweh.

Numbers 15:24 then it shall be, if it be done unwittingly, without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bull for a burnt offering, for a pleasant aroma to Yahweh, with the meal offering of it, and the drink offering of it, according to the ordinance, and one male goat for a sin offering.

Numbers 28:27 but you shall offer a burnt offering for a pleasant aroma to Yahweh: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs a year old;

Numbers 29:2 You shall offer a burnt offering for a pleasant aroma to Yahweh: one young bull, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;

Numbers 29:8 but you shall offer a burnt offering to Yahweh for a pleasant aroma: one young bull, one ram, seven male lambs a year old; they shall be to you without blemish;

Numbers 29:13 and you shall offer a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, of a pleasant aroma to Yahweh; thirteen young bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old; they shall be without blemish;

Numbers 29:36 but you shall offer a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, of a pleasant aroma to Yahweh: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;

[Savonarola]

Further discussion about Frank Tipler's views has been split to here. Please continue any discussion in the appropriate thread.

--Savonarola, FFForums Mod@Large

[ignosticmorgan]

[color=#BF0040Ffolks, No God has any rights over us, much less the one to make us worship Him or to send us to Hell [ Yes, He not we!]!He faces the one way street- obligation - of putting us into a much safer place. No reason exists for not having done so. That means an evil or incompetent God, were there one, that caused all the imperfections and evils
We would not be his clay nor He our potter, that sophist Paul notwithstanding. That pervert Paul just hated sex
And all the writers of the anthology the Buy-bull [Bye-bull were misanthropes.
Why would any rational person care what those idiots said that that monster Yahweh had to command![/color]