Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

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RobertMadewell
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Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by RobertMadewell »

Here's a sign that is posted outside of a local business. I took it at night becaue I wanted to write this article before it gets taken down. I had to bump up the brightness and contrast. If I get a chance to take a photo in the day, I post that as well. Despite the photo being very low quality, it is quite readable. I guess that's what counts.
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Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Psalms 109:8

A sign that suggests prayer for my country, with a scripture reference, seems pretty harmless at first. That is, until you look up the verse. These people really are praying that our president dies so that Biden can take over his office. In my opinion this is hate speech. I'm very sure (though I have no proof) that it's because our president is black.

The traditional credit for writing this verse goes to King David. The same man who wrote the anti-atheist verse, Pslams 14:1. Do people really want to take advice from a man who had his best friend killed so that he can screw his wife? Do people really want to take advice from a man who chose to have 70,000 of his people die instead of himself being exiled?

Note: CafePress removed t-shirts with this inscrpition on them.
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by Savonarola »

RobertMadewell wrote:In my opinion this is hate speech. I'm very sure (though I have no proof) that it's because our president is black.
Maybe so, but let's not push the issue. It's essentially a threat to the President of the United States, which is a no-no regardless of race or color. I think that that's the thing to focus on if we wanted to do anything about it. (Additionally, I have a strong suspicion that the person who posted the reference will probably claim to be a True Patriot(tm) and to love the country. There's irony for you.)

This brings up an interesting question in my mind. If I take steps that have a significant impact in the murder of a public official -- say I transported a gunman to or from a scene or loaned my rifle to the gunman with full knowledge of what he planned to do with it -- won't I be prosecuted? Maybe if I bum-rush the President and inject him with something that I thought was a deadly poison, I'd be charged with attempted murder? The fact that I'm too foolish to know that a direct intramuscular injection of apple juice won't kill a person doesn't change my intent, right?
These people are now praying for something bad to happen to the President. They are foolish enough to believe that their praying will effect the limiting of Obama's "days." Is it just me, or is there a double standard? I can see the argument that prayer isn't legally recognized as effect, but that'd be a really neat thing for us freethinkers to pull out of a back pocket in a conversation, wouldn't it?
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by Dardedar »

RobertMadewell wrote:traditional credit for writing this verse goes to King David.
DAR
Remember if you want to see all the best dirt on old King David, we've got it right here:

"Righteous" King David - "as an angel of God"?
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RobertMadewell
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by RobertMadewell »

It's essentially a threat to the President of the United States, which is a no-no regardless of race or color. I think that that's the thing to focus on if we wanted to do anything about it.
I think you're right on that one. Though, I'm not going to retract my suspicion of racism, yet.

Here's my new daytime picture.
Image

Here's a protest sign/T-shirt I just threw together because I can't work and have all this freaking free time. I think I can grab text off of just about any picture, if there's enough contrast. The Gimp is my God!
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by RobertMadewell »

Prayer Sign Update

The sign that I wrote about earlier has now changed. I don't have a picture but, it now says,
Ephesians 6:12

Pray for our
Nation
The new verse is a famous verse. It's still ominous. At least it's not specific and doesn't call for anyone to die.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by RobertMadewell »

My Prayer Sign Suggestion

Since I've been accused of being hateful for pointing out bible verses being used in hateful ways, I have a suggestion for a prayer sign.

I know that the bible is full of brutality and hate, yet there are some very good verses in there. You just have to search through all the smelly oysters before you find the pearl. If Christians want to use the bible in a "Christ-like manner", I suggest searching out the enlightened verses instead of using poems written by evil tyrants. There's an entire industry of publishers that will do that job for you. You just have to read the study guides and use the nice verses.

My suggestion is one of my favorite verses in the entire bible. I had to search for it again because I forgot the reference. Christians, enjoy. This one is for you, because this is what our country really needs.

Click Here

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. Romans 14:19
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Betsy
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by Betsy »

Savonarola wrote:
RobertMadewell wrote: This brings up an interesting question in my mind. If I take steps that have a significant impact in the murder of a public official -- say I transported a gunman to or from a scene or loaned my rifle to the gunman with full knowledge of what he planned to do with it -- won't I be prosecuted? Maybe if I bum-rush the President and inject him with something that I thought was a deadly poison, I'd be charged with attempted murder? The fact that I'm too foolish to know that a direct intramuscular injection of apple juice won't kill a person doesn't change my intent, right?
Hey! I happen to be studying this very sort of thing right now.

Accomplice liability = you have to aid or encourage the principal with the intent that the crime be committed. In your examples, you would probably be liable as an accomplice, but you would argue that you didn't really INTEND for the crime to be committed. Just loaning a gun isn't enough if you didn't intend for the guy to use it.

Attempted Murder = yes, you would be charged, because "mistake of fact" is never a defense to an intent crime.
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by Savonarola »

Betsy wrote:Hey! I happen to be studying this very sort of thing right now.
Perfect. Knowledge is power. Thanks for sharing.
Betsy wrote:In your examples, you would probably be liable as an accomplice, but you would argue that you didn't really INTEND for the crime to be committed. Just loaning a gun isn't enough if you didn't intend for the guy to use it.
Perhaps your response is more attuned to the item in question than it is to my example, but it seems to me that the argument "I loaned him the gun but didn't expect him to use it" is a prosecutor's dream. Was he going to use it as a hat rack instead?

Are we supposed to believe that the sign was a joke? In a part of the country where people accept as an incontrovertible fact that prayer works, a death prayer -- one taken straight from a book that people accept as the literal commanding of a deity -- can be expected to be treated differently?
Maybe this is like the rightwing nuts and Tiller. Incite enough violent feelings and demands for death to effect a murder, then say, "Oh, hey, I didn't think anyone would actually do it" (even after multiple previous attempts on his life). Do far-right colleges and universities have a freshman class called Ass-Covering 101? (It could double as being useful for when they get caught committing fraud and violating ethics regulations and get sent to prison.)
Betsy wrote:Attempted Murder = yes, you would be charged, because "mistake of fact" is never a defense to an intent crime.
I understand that you're answering the apple juice injection question, but to draw the line back to the impetus of the analogy: If you truly believe that praying for someone's death will lead to that person's death, praying for someone to die is attempted murder? From what you've said, I think the answer would be yes, though I have no doubt that no prosecutor would see it that way.
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by Betsy »

well, under the "mistake of fact is never a defense" rule, you have a very good point. I'm going to look up some case law and see if anything like this has ever been brought before the court. probably not, but before we continue I should check...

apparently there was some discussion of this on the Rachel Maddow Show...

here and

video here


on the gun thing, the defendant would likely say he loaned it because the guy wanted to go hunting, or shoot some squirrels on his property, .... ya know. he didn't intend for the guy to kill someone.
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by Betsy »

Can't find any Supreme Court cases except with regard to protected speech; but here's a nice summary of the issue I found online:

Prayer as Attempted Murder?
A reader asks an interesting question:

Some Christian Reconstructionists are urging their fellows to pray for the death of John McCain so that Sarah Palin will be become President. [Example here.] Are those who pray for McCain's death guilty of attempted murder, and are those urging them to do so guilty of incitement? It seems to me that they are. Although I don't believe that their prayers can have any effect, it seems to me that this falls into the same category as the oft-discussed firing of an unloaded gun or firing a gun into a bed that turns out to be empty. The intent to kill is present and an action has been taken in furtherance of that goal. Christians should presumably be all the more clear that this is attempted murder insofar as they believe prayer to be efficacious.

This, it seems to me, is a good illustration of the limits of analogy. It's true that asking someone to commit murder may well constitute attempted murder (as well as the crime of solicitation). The test for attempt is generally not just that "an action has been taken in furtherance of that goal" — different jurisdictions require different amounts of conduct, but all require more than just "an action" for an attempt prosecution (as opposed to for a conspiracy prosecution, where an agreement plus an overt act, even a relatively minor one, generally suffices). But when a person has asked another human being to commit the crime, especially when he hopes that the other person will commit the act with no further help from the requester, that would usually qualify. And indeed it generally doesn't matter if it turns out that the request couldn't possibly work, for instance because the person asked would never commit the crime, or was accidentally given an unloaded gun, or some such.

But people aren't the same as God, either to atheists or to religious people. One way of seeing that is that God's action wouldn't be illegal. To those who believe in God, as he is conceptualized by most Americans, God's action wouldn't even be immoral. (It's true that some people say "If God killed people for this-and-such, he would be evil," but usually they are people who don't believe that God does that.) It would be within his authority as, in a sense, the ultimate sovereign of the world.

In fact, if there is an analogy here, it would probably be to a petition to the President asking him to order an assassination that he could lawfully order (or, as to the other part of the reader's question, to exhortations to the public aimed at getting people to petition the President to order such an assassination). I would say that it's even legal to petition the President to order assassinations that are illegal; but, as I said, there's nothing illegal in God's hastening someone's death.

We could try to come up with precise constitutional foundations for this, for instance that the request to the President is protected by the Petition Clause of the First Amendment, and that a request to God is protected by the Free Exercise Clause. Or we could focus on a legal distinction between asking someone to do something that is legal for him (or Him) to do from asking a contract killer to do something that is illegal for him to do. Or we could focus more practically on the relative unlikelihood that a person who tries to cause death by prayer will switch to a gun if prayer fails. (That's one reason we punish attempted killers even when their attempts were factually impossible, for instance because the gun is unloaded: We figure they are quite likely to try with a loaded gun next time.) But we don't have to choose, because all these factors strongly point in the same direction, and strongly suggest that asking God to end a person's life is very far from asking an acquaintance or a prospective contract killer to do the same.

(I should note that there has been a little judicial commentary on attempts to kill by voodoo or withchraft, as best I can tell unanimously opposing criminal liability in such situations. See Commonwealth v. Johnson, 167 A. 344 (Pa. 1933) (Maxey, J., dissenting); Attorney General v. Sillem, 159 Eng. Rep. 178 (1863). But I'm not sure this is a perfect analogy, either, and in any event there's not much real law on that.)

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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by graybear13 »

Public prayer should be reprimanded by all christian churches...Mathew chapter 6..."And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men." (the words of Jesus, King James version)...and "public hate prayer" , wether it is against the president or your neighbors chicken, should carry some civil penalty such as jail time or public service.

"Early prayer was hardly worship; it was a bargaining
petition for health, wealth, and life. And in many
respects prayers have not much changed with the passing
of the ages. They are still read out of books, recited formally,
and written out for emplacement on wheels and for
hanging on trees, where the blowing of the wind will
save man the trouble of expending his own breath. "

When man learned that prayer could not coerce the Gods, then it became more of a petition, favor seeking. But the truest prayer is in reality a communion between man and his maker.

One last thing about the sign...True prayer is both moral and religious; Magic is neither. The sign appears to be a Magic curse.
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by tmiller51 »

"public hate prayer" , wether it is against the president or your neighbors chicken, should carry some civil penalty such as jail time or public service.
Wow, that sounds very oppressive, I wouldn't want to live in a society like that. Who gets to decide if it's a prayer? if it's hate? That would certainly take some kooks off of the street but that's not worth it.
One last thing about the sign...True prayer is both moral and religious; Magic is neither. The sign appears to be a Magic curse.
Why do you capitalize the word "magic"?, that just makes you appear off-balanced, but I suspect you don't care. Do we have a debate about whether or not there is magic? Because you won't be able to prove that there is and I won't be able to prove that there isn't. (If you can prove that there is I know where you can get a million dollars.)

Anyway, I have found this article to be one of my favorites that I've ever come across the internet and I feel like sharing it with you: How Thinking Goes Wrong - Twenty-five Fallacies That Lead Us to Believe Weird Things Don't take this as punitive, I'm not saying my thinking is perfect--I'd say not even close. I'm sure I fall victim to many of these fallacies all the time but being able to try to objectively hold up my beliefs or conclusions against this type of yardstick I find to be sublime.

Tim
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Re: Psalms 109:8 sign in Harrison

Post by graybear13 »

tmiller51 wrote:
"public hate prayer" , wether it is against the president or your neighbors chicken, should carry some civil penalty such as jail time or public service.
Wow, that sounds very oppressive, I wouldn't want to live in a society like that. Who gets to decide if it's a prayer? if it's hate? That would certainly take some kooks off of the street but that's not worth it.
One last thing about the sign...True prayer is both moral and religious; Magic is neither. The sign appears to be a Magic curse.
Why do you capitalize the word "magic"?, that just makes you appear off-balanced, but I suspect you don't care. Do we have a debate about whether or not there is magic? Because you won't be able to prove that there is and I won't be able to prove that there isn't. (If you can prove that there is I know where you can get a million dollars.)

Anyway, I have found this article to be one of my favorites that I've ever come across the internet and I feel like sharing it with you: How Thinking Goes Wrong - Twenty-five Fallacies That Lead Us to Believe Weird Things Don't take this as punitive, I'm not saying my thinking is perfect--I'd say not even close. I'm sure I fall victim to many of these fallacies all the time but being able to try to objectively hold up my beliefs or conclusions against this type of yardstick I find to be sublime.

Tim
I guess I got a little carried away, but public prayer makes me crazy.

Open attempts to coerce the spirits or bargain with Diety is magic and there are plenty of practitioners of it in this modern world. They still swear, knock on wood, cross their fingers and spout some trite phrase; Once it was a magical formula.

I think that public prayer and magical incantations are very similar. Hatefull prayer is the practice of magic. All experience the same measure of success...zilch. Where do I pick up my check...you didin't say successful magic :lol:

By the way,thanks for the link.
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