Foremost Founders not Deist?

[Dardedar]

This one is going to need a nice careful roast. We should divvy them up. There are six.

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TIMES Letters to the editor

http://www.nwanews.com/news/2009/oct/04 ... -20091004/

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Free thinkers are the best sort

It has been contended here and in local online skeptical forums that the Founding Fathers were Deists and not Christians. I would like to propose this is actually half-thinking, since there is a refusal to research the subject with original documents. Let's look at what the men themselves said.
Thomas Paine, in his "The Study of God," says it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He goes on to say this "evil" will lead to "atheism." No deist here.
In his 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, Ben Franklin insisted that schools teach "the necessity of a public religion ... and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." He then called for a biblical inscription for the seal of the United States. Franklin helped established paid chaplains in Congress. His namesake college was dedicated as a nursery of religion and learning. No deist here, and no separation of church and state either.
George Washington openly promoted Christianity. On May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn "above all" was the "religion of Jesus Christ," and on May 2, 1778, told his men that being a Christian was even greater than being a patriot. His adopted daughter said that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity. No deist here.
Alexander Hamilton set up the Christian Constitution Society to spread the two things he felt made America great: Christianity and a Constitution formed under Christianity. He claimed "a lively faith in God's mercy through Christ." No deist here.
John Adams said he wished to be listed as a fellow disciple with all Christians. He said our Constitution was designed only for a religious and moral people. No deist here.
And the skeptics' favorite, Thomas Jefferson. He declared "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." What about that cut-up Bible of his that skeptics parade out? Jefferson himself said that was just to introduce Native Americans to Jesus. It was not a rejection of the whole Scriptures. That same Jefferson provided - at government's expense - Christian missionaries to the Indians. Not even a deist here.
The dictionary lists the terms "deist," "agnostic" and "atheist" as synonyms. The Founding Fathers by their own words do not fit this definition. These are the free thinkers I wish to be listed with.
Mike Harrod, Fayetteville

[Doug]

Doug writes:
I saw that in the paper. Well-known deists are all of a sudden not deists, if this chump is to be believed. I suspect his "research" is not even at the low level of Barton. More likely it's Herbert W. Titus, that hack that came to Springdale a few years ago and claimed that Ben Franklin (a professed deist) was a Christian.

We can roast it here, but I recommend all roasts be limited to the word count in NWAT and that they be submitted for publication there. We need to get this information out to a wide audience.

[Betsy]

I think his reference to this site indicates he's been here and probably got the idea for his letter by first discussing it here- likely he is "galt". Harris is a prolific letter writer and it's always about some religious rightwing nutcakery.

[Doug]

I think his reference to this site indicates he's been here and probably got the idea for his letter by first discussing it here- likely he is "galt".

DOUG
If so, this is good evidence that we need to roast the crap out of liars like this guy. No one who's done competent research could believe for a moment that George Washington or James Madison were not deists, or that Jefferson was a Christian.

What is especially laughable is that this moron tries to pass off Thomas Paine as a theist. Paine was explicit in The Age of Reason that his work was intended to be a defense of deism.

"Is it not more safe that we stop ourselves at the plain, pure, and unmixed belief of one God, which is Deism, than that we commit ourselves on an ocean of improbable, irrational, indecent and contradictory tales?" Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"The quotations I then made were from memory only, but they are correct; and the opinions I have advanced in that work are the effect of the most clear and long-established conviction that the Bible and the Testament are impositions upon the world, that the fall of man, the account of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and of his dying to appease the wrath
of God, and of salvation by that strange means, are all fabulous inventions, dishonorable to the wisdom and power of the Almighty; that the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and mean now, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues- and that it was upon this only (so far as religion is concerned) that I rested all my hopes of happiness hereafter. So say I now- and so help me God."--Ibid. [emphasis added.]

[Dardedar]

I think his reference to this site indicates he's been here and probably got the idea for his letter by first discussing it here->>

DAR
I doubt it. Last week I sent a snail mail letter to this Mike Harrod. It was the five page line by line roast of his response to Art Hobson's article. In that letter I gave him the link to the post and invited him to this forum. I also gave him our website and contact information. One of the claims I referred to was this "founders were Christians" claim he made. So in this latest letter he referenced "local online skeptical forums" and referred to "free thinkers"(sic) in his title. I don't see any reason to think he's Galt.

Anyone so foolish that they would try to pretend Paine was a Christian clearly hasn't read any Paine and ought to stay to themselves and not send such silliness for publication in the paper. Mr. Harrod clearly doesn't even know where to begin. We'll see if he has the courage to respond in this forum.

D.
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"They are so little masters of the subject as to confound a dispute about authenticity with a dispute about doctrines; I will, however, put them right, that if they should be disposed to write any more, they may know how to begin." --Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, pg. 103

ps. I am pretty sure his George Washington quote is bogus. You can search the entire works of George Washington in the Library of Congress. When you search for "Jesus" it finds two hits and both of those are comments not made by Washington.

See also his wiki quote page which has his more famous quotes along with debunks of the phony ones. No mention of "Jesus" or "Christ."

Jefferson knew what he was up to:

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However [Dr. Rush] observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice. Rush observes he never did say a word on the subject in any of his public papers except in his valedictory letter to the Governors of the states whn he resigned his commission in the army, wherein he speaks of the benign influence of the Christian religion. I know that Gouvemeur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did."

* Thomas Jefferson, the Anas (1 February 1800), on George Washington's absent Christianity. Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition (1904) edited by Paul Leicester Ford, Vol. 1, pp. 352–353.

[Betsy]

Darrel,you might know him from the band "old dime box".

[Dardedar]

Never heard of them, or him.