popular right-wing letter being forwarded around

[Betsy]

I received this from someone I know ... I was going to go through it point-by-point, ala Darrel, but thought it would be interesting to see how you guys address it. Here it is, called "A GREAT LETTER":


LETTER:


I'll be 63 soon... Except for one semester in college when jobs were scarce,
and a six-month period when I was between jobs, but job-hunting every day,
I've worked, hard, since I was 18. Despite some health challenges, I still
put in 50-hour weeks, and haven't called in sick in seven or eight years. I
make a good salary, but I didn't inherit my job or
my income, and I worked to get where I am. Given the economy, there's no
retirement in sight, and I'm tired -very tired.

I'm tired of being told that I have to "spread the wealth around" to people
who don't have my work ethic. I'm tired of being told the government will
take the money I earned, by force if necessary, and give it to people too
lazy or stupid to earn it..

I'm tired of being told that I have to pay more taxes to "keep people in
their homes." Sure, if they lost their jobs or got sick, I'm willing to
help. But if they bought McMansions at three times the price of our
paid-off, $250,000 condo, on one-third of my salary, then let the leftwing
Congress-critters who passed Fannie and Freddie and the Community
Reinvestment Act that created the bubble help them with their own money.

I'm tired of being told how bad America is by leftwing millionaires like
Michael Moore, George Soros and Hollywood entertainers who live in luxury
because of the opportunities America offers.. In thirty years, if they get
their way, the United States will have the religious freedom and women's
rights of Saudi Arabia , the economy of Zimbabwe , the freedom of the press
of China , the crime and violence of Mexico , the tolerance for Gay people
of Iran , and the freedom of speech of Venezuela .. Won't multiculturalism be
beautiful?

I'm tired of being told that Islam is a "Religion of Peace," when every day
I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and
daughters for their family "honor;" of Muslims rioting over some slight
offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren't
"believers;" of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims
stoning teenage rape victims to death for "adultery;" of Muslims mutilating
the genitals of little girls; all in the name of
Allah, because the Qur'an and Shari'a law tells them to..

I believe "a man should be judged by the content of his character, not by
the color of his skin." I'm tired of being told that "race doesn't matter"
in the post-racial world of President Obama, when it's all that matters in
affirmative action jobs, lower college admission and graduation standards
for minorities (harming them the most), government contract set-asides,
tolerance for the ghetto culture of violence and fatherless children that
hurts minorities more than anyone, and in the appointment of US Senators
from Illinois. I think it's very cool that we have a black president and
that a black child is doing her homework at the desk where Lincoln wrote the
emancipation proclamation.. . I just wish the black president was Condi Rice,
or someone who believes more in freedom and the individual and less in an
all-knowing government.

I'm tired of a news media that thinks Bush's fundraising and inaugural
expenses were obscene, but that think Obama's, at triple the cost, were
wonderful. That thinks Bush exercising daily was a waste of presidential
time, but Obama exercising is a great example for the public to control
weight and stress, that picked over every line of Bush's military records,
but never demanded that Kerry release his, that slammed Palin with two years
as governor for being too inexperienced for VP, but touted Obama with three
years as senator as potentially the best president ever.

Wonder why people are dropping their subscriptions or switching to Fox News?
Get a clue. I didn't vote for Bush in 2000, but the media and Kerry drove me
to his camp in 2004.

I'm tired of being told that out of "tolerance for other cultures" we must
let Saudi Arabia use our oil money to fund mosques and madrassa Islamic
schools to preach hate in America , while no American group is allowed to
fund a church, synagogue or religious school in Saudi Arabia to teach love
and tolerance.

I'm tired of being told I must lower my living standard to fight global
warming, which no one is allowed to debate. My wife and I live in a
two-bedroom apartment and carpool together five miles to our jobs. We also
own a three-bedroom condo where our daughter and granddaughter live. Our
carbon footprint is about 5% of Al Gore's, and if you're greener than Gore,
you're green enough.

I'm tired of being told that drug addicts have a disease, and I must help
support and treat them, and pay for the damage they do.. Did a giant germ
rush out of a dark alley, grab them, and stuff white powder up their noses
while they tried to fight it off? I don't think Gay people choose to be Gay,
but I damn sure think druggies chose to take drugs. And I'm tired of
harassment from cool people treating me like a freak when I tell them I
never tried marijuana.

I'm tired of illegal aliens being called "undocumented workers," especially
the ones who aren't working, but are living on welfare or crime. What's
next? Calling drug dealers, "Undocumented Pharmacists" ? And, no, I'm not
against Hispanics. Most of them are Catholic and it's been a few hundred
years since Catholics wanted to kill me for my religion. I'm willing to fast
track for citizenship any Hispanic person who can speak English, doesn't
have a criminal record and who is self-supporting without family on welfare,
or who serves honorably for three years in our military. Those are the
citizens we need.

I'm tired of latte liberals and journalists, who would never wear the
uniform of the Republic themselves, or let their entitlement- handicapped
kids near a recruiting station, trashing our military. They and their kids
can sit at home, never having to make split-second decisions under life and
death circumstances, and bad mouth better people than themselves. Do bad
things happen in war? You bet. Do our troops sometimes misbehave? Sure.. Does
this compare with the atrocities that were the policy of our enemies for the
last fifty years-and still are? Not even close. So here's the deal. I'll let
myself be subjected to all the humiliation and abuse that was heaped on
terrorists at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo, and the critics can let themselves be
subject to captivity by the Muslims who tortured and beheaded Daniel Pearl
in Pakistan , or the Muslims who tortured and murdered Marine Lt. Col.
William Higgins in Lebanon , or the Muslims who ran the blood-spattered
Al Qaeda torture rooms our troops found in Iraq , or the Muslims who cut
off the heads of schoolgirls in Indonesia , because the girls were
Christian. Then we'll compare notes. British and American soldiers are the
only troops in history that civilians came to for help and handouts,
instead of hiding from in fear.

I'm tired of people telling me that their party has a corner on virtue and
the other party has a corner on corruption. Read the papers-bums are
bi-partisan. And I'm tired of people telling me we need bi-partisanship.. I
live in Illinois , where the "Illinois Combine" of Democrats and Republicans
has worked together harmoniously to loot the public for years. And I notice
that the tax cheats in Obama's cabinet are bi-partisan as well.

I'm tired of hearing wealthy athletes, entertainers and politicians of both
parties talking about innocent mistakes, stupid mistakes or youthful
mistakes, when we all know they think their only mistake was getting caught.
I'm tired of people with a sense of entitlement, rich or poor.

Speaking of poor, I'm tired of hearing people with air-conditioned homes,
color TVs and two cars called poor. The majority of Americans didn't have
that in 1970, but we didn't know we were "poor." The poverty pimps have to
keep changing the definition of poor to keep the dollars flowing.

I'm real tired of people who don't take responsibility for their lives and
actions. I'm tired of hearing them blame the government, or discrimination,
or big-whatever for their problems.

Yes, I'm tired. But I'm also glad to be 63. Because, mostly, I'm not
going to get to see the world these people are making. I'm just sorry for my
granddaughter.

Robert A. Hall is a Marine Vietnam veteran who served five terms in the
Massachusetts state senate. He blogs at http://www.tartanmarine.blogspot.com

[L.Wood]

.

I'm tired of being told how bad America is by leftwing millionaires like
Michael Moore, George Soros and Hollywood entertainers who live in luxury
because of the opportunities America offers..

Robert should recall that for 8 years rightwing billionaires who own tv, newspaper and radio
told him how good things were. He was given a small tax break in 2003 while those
billionaires received two whopping tax cuts. Additionally he was told how necessary it
was to give $18 billion in subsidies to the richest oil corporations in the world. Additionally
he was told by Bush and friends how this was an ownership society and everybody should
own something. He was also told it was fine to combine banking, insurance and not let
regulators get in the way of this prosperity boon.

How's that working out for you Robert?

.

[Savonarola]

My goodness. There's so much idiocy that I can't possibly cover it all anyway, Betsy. I'll stick to the high points.

I'm tired of being told that Islam is a "Religion of Peace," when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family "honor;" of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren't "believers;"

Right: the Muslims are just a few hundred years behind the Christians when it comes to religion-induced atrocity. No, wait; nonbelievers are still treated like crap by self-righteous evangelicals. And apparently, Muslims get a stereotyped bum rap from self-righteous evangelicals like you, as you so perfectly demonstrated.

I just wish the black president was Condi Rice, or someone who believes more in freedom and the individual and less in an all-knowing government.

Well, you almost got part of one right. Rice and the rest of the Bush administration certainly didn't know a damn thing. The catch here is that she helped the Bush administration use the Bill of Rights as toilet paper. Pay attention, would you?

Wonder why people are dropping their subscriptions or switching to Fox News?

People aren't switching to FOX, you numbskull. FOX's ratings are going down. Murdoch is losing money with his rightwing propaganda machines every single year.

I'll let myself be subjected to all the humiliation and abuse that was heaped on terrorists at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo, and the critics can let themselves be subject to captivity by the Muslims who tortured and beheaded Daniel Pearl in Pakistan

Ah, the classic "their atrocities are worse than ours, therefore our atrocities are okay" argument.

This alone should show that this dipshit's reasoning skills would be considered substandard if he were a third-grader.

[Dardedar]

DAR
This is mostly a low calorie junk food rant but I think I will pluck some of the low hanging fruit.

LETTER:
Given the economy, there's no
retirement in sight, and I'm tired -very tired.

DAR
Gee, I wonder who did this to your economy?

I'm tired of being told that I have to "spread the wealth around" to people
who don't have my work ethic.

DAR
Republicans really ought to stop being dishonest about this comment. It was made to "Joe the Plumber" a fellow who knows a little about getting some of the wealth spread to him since he has been on welfare, twice. I understand the comment to mean, this nation has a lot of wealth and we can have a tax system that tends to make a few people very very rich and a lot of people poor, or we can have a more fair progressive system which allows a large middle class to thrive, thus allowing the wealth to be spread around rather than just accumulate at the very top. McCain distorted and threw this comment around countless times during the debates and the American just didn't buy it. It's a dud.

I'm tired of being told the government will
take the money I earned, by force if necessary, and give it to people too
lazy or stupid to earn it..

DAR
Republican heroes and icons like Joe the Plumber or "lazy or stupid?" Okay. I see your point.

In thirty years, if they get
their way, the United States will have the religious freedom and women's
rights of Saudi Arabia,...

DAR
Really? Is that the way it's trending? I love it when rightwingers pretend like they care about religious freedom or civil rights. If you have a problem with religious discrimination in the country, you know who stands up and goes to bat for you? The ACLU. Does anyone wonder if this gasbag is a member of the ACLU? Right. And in "thirty years" single women won't be allowed to be seen in public with men, won't be allowed to drive cars and will be wearing burkas.
I enjoy a good rant, but this is just stupid, then it gets worse.

...the economy of Zimbabwe,

DAR
As I am constantly advising dim bulbs who think they can be funny without any training or forethought, if you are going to try to be humorous you have to start with a grain of truth and build on it. Consider:

Wiki:
"The economy of Zimbabwe is collapsing under the weight of economic mismanagement, resulting in 94% unemployment[2] and spiraling hyperinflation... Inflation has surpassed that of all other nations at over 80 sextillion(1021)%. It currently has the lowest GDP real growth rate in an independent country..."

Their GDP = $1.9 billion.

Arkansas (a poor state ranking 48th by state) GDP = $78 billion.

Now, George Bush may have set us in the general direction of Zimbabwe but you can see we have a long way to go. The hope is that Obama (praise be his name) will help turn this around.

the freedom of the press of China,

DAR
Really? Is this an issue? Has someone been squelching the freedom of the press in the US? If so, who is standing up for protecting it? Rightwingers? Now you are being funny.

the crime and violence of Mexico,...

DAR
Actually, we assist in that regard. Something like 90% of the assault rifles being used by gangs in Mexico are coming from US gun dealers just across the border. Does anyone think this guy is a member of the Brady Coalition for sensible gun control?

the tolerance for Gay people of Iran,

DAR
Now this is a curious one. I think he surely made a boo here. The tolerance for gay people in Iran is near zero. They kill them. In the US and around the world tolerance is rising, getting better. And which political side has been for increasing tolerance and which has been fighting it tooth and nail?

I just wish the black president was Condi Rice,

DAR
Well you should have tried her. Obama would have kicked her ass too. Maybe after a few years she will be able to wash the Bush off of her reputation and have a life again.

I'm tired of a news media that thinks Bush's fundraising and inaugural
expenses were obscene, but that think Obama's, at triple the cost, were
wonderful.

DAR
This is why I like to take the time to roast shitheads like Galt and this fellow. I almost always learn something. Observe:

"The cost of Obama's inauguration, minus the security costs? Approximately $45 million."

The amount spent on George Bush's inauguration in 2005? $42.3million

The amount spent on Bill Clinton's in 1993? $33 million.

Here's how the lie worked. They compared apples to oranges and didn't figure in Bush's security costs. Unbelievably stupid.

"However, buried in a recent New York Times article published one week before the controversy erupted over the cost of Obama's inauguration, the newspaper reported that in 2005, "the federal government and the District of Columbia spent a combined $115.5 million, most of it for security, the swearing-in ceremony, cleanup and for a holiday for federal workers" [emphasis added].

You read that correctly. The federal government spent $115 million dollars for the 2005 inauguration. Keep in mind, that $115 million price tag was separate from the money Bush backers bundled to put on the inauguration festivities. For that, they raised $42 million. So the bottom line for Bush's 2005 inauguration, including the cost of security? That's right, $157 million."

See:
AP Fabricates Cost Of Obama Inauguration

The media myth about the cost of Obama's inauguration

Liars!

...that picked over every line of Bush's military records,
but never demanded that Kerry release his,

DAR
Actually they did and he did. Bush doesn't have a military record because when he wasn't AWOL he was a chickenhawk draft dodger.

"In fairness, Bush has been candid about why he enlisted in the Air National Guard. Like many young men of his generation, he wanted to avoid Vietnam. He told one reporter, "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." --MSNBC

that slammed Palin with two years
as governor for being too inexperienced for VP,...

DAR
A state with a little more population than North West Arkansas!

Wonder why people are dropping their subscriptions or switching to Fox News?

DAR
You know what I wonder? I wonder why Fox lost $6.4 billion in the 4th quarter of last year if people are "switching to Fox News."

Get a clue. I didn't vote for Bush in 2000,...

DAR
I bet you forgot.

I'm tired of being told that out of "tolerance for other cultures" we must
let Saudi Arabia use our oil money to fund mosques and madrassa Islamic
schools to preach hate in America,

DAR
And just a minute ago you were for "freedom of religion." Where is there a "madrassa" in America? Hey, if you want the arabs to have less of your oil money, you could always sell the Hummer (and buy a Prius).

while no American group is allowed to
fund a church, synagogue or religious school in Saudi Arabia to teach love
and tolerance.

DAR
Maybe because they would teach love and tolerance in the way you are preaching it here?

I'm tired of being told I must lower my living standard to fight global
warming, which no one is allowed to debate.

DAR
Oh your welcome to debate it. You will just lose. Every time. No exceptions.

Our carbon footprint is about 5% of Al Gore's, and if you're greener than Gore,
you're green enough.

DAR
Al Gore buys carbon offsets so his carbon footprint is zero. Do you know what 5% of zero is? I didn't think so.

And I'm tired of harassment from cool people treating me like a freak when I tell them I
never tried marijuana.

DAR
Those marijuana users are such harassers! Always so pushy.

Do our troops sometimes misbehave? Sure.. Does
this compare with the atrocities that were the policy of our enemies for the
last fifty years-and still are? Not even close.

DAR
Why would you compare us to "our enemies?" That's the standard we should go by? Why not our peers? You know, NATO countries. You have to set the standard at the level of the "terrorists" to make us look good? That should tell you something about the problem right there.

British and American soldiers are the
only troops in history that civilians came to for help and handouts,
instead of hiding from in fear.

DAR
What a complete LOAD of shit.

Robert A. Hall is a Marine Vietnam veteran who served five terms in the
Massachusetts state senate. He blogs at http://www.tartanmarine.blogspot.com

DAR
I am going to go over there and tell him he is getting a good roast over here. If I can find this letter on his site I will post this roast there.

D.

[Dardedar]

DAR
I found the guys letter on his blog here.

He has 200 plus comments, most of them ass kissing. This one is smok'in!

***
disgusted Republican Okie said...

I'm tired too buddy!
I just turned 60....
I missed ONE day in school from 3rd grade til graduation.
I got a one year scholarship and a low draft # when I graduated High School.
I decided to put 4 years in the Navy rather than hide out in college or in a cushy Reserve job,like Bush did,with the help of his Daddy.
I worked 34 years,12 hours a day,outside in all types of weather at a UNION job,and had nothing given to me either.
And I am tired..VERY tired too.
I'm tired of Republicans yelling "redistribute the wealth" when they mean "let us keep our outrageous Corporate and dividend tax breaks".
I'm tired of Republicans blaming only Fannie and Freddie and Barney and Pelosi, when 75% of the blame goes to Georgie and Citi and Merrell and SEC.
I'm tired of Democrats spending Stimulus money on people who aren't willing to work,instead of the Middle Class,who continues to pay the taxes that the top bracket keeps trying to avoid.
I'm tired of giving interest paid on homes as tax breaks, but making renters make up the tax difference.
I'm tired of lowlifes and real estate speculators getting any stimulus help.
I'm tired of the government propping up housing prices when the only way new and future buyers can ever get a house is for the insane prices they reached 2 years ago to drop 25% more.
I'm tired of Republicans that claim to be social Conservatives, but cheer Rush Bimbo when he rants against The War on Poverty.
I'm tired of every pious Republican who thinks he has a monopoly on working hard and bettering themselves.
I'm tired of the Republicans that knock the Streisand,Moore,Penn rich left, but never mention the Cheney,Madoff, Enron corrupt rich right represented by Phil Graham and his "America is just a country of whiners".
I'm tired of Republicans who say they need to cater to the Sam's Club crowd, when Walmart represents every company that's destroyed our economy by monopolizing business with cheap Chinese goods.
I'm tired of the Republican tax cut system that says "let them eat Campbell's soup and the $ menu at McDonalds"
In 30 years,if Republicans get their way,we will have no religious freedom..just Evangelical principles.We will have no women's rights to abortions or any government program for birth control and STD control except abstinence.
We already were heading toward an economy like Zimbabwe when we refused to add the $700 billion wasted on "the wrong war in the wrong place" war in Iraq to the Bush budgets.
We already have the crime and violence of Mexico in our country in case you haven't noticed.
I'm tired of the NRA crowd chanting right to bear arms,but allow the export of assault weapons and more to the drug cartels in Mexico without a peep.
As for the freedom of speech...no Republican is allowed to speak aginst Rush Bimbo now, without having to crawl to his radio show and bow down in fear.I dread to see what it would look like with 30 years of Republican drool.
I'm tired of the Islamists claims of being the religion of peace.But I'm even more tired of spending billions to support the sham government in iraq while they hide in the Green Zone.I'm tired of Republicans wanting to keep wasting lives and dollars on Iraqis who will resume fighting when we leave and who still support Hammas in their war against Israel.
As for tolerance of gays,no Republican would ever be nominated if he spent $1 or supported one bill supporting any gay agenda.
As for the "Won't muticulturalism be beautiful?' question, I have one for you..
"is that your way of saying Whites only?"..multiculturalism is here now buddy..white man America is long gone..whites will be THE minority in 20 years and putting a token black as head of the RNC and trotting out your slumdog for millionares to counter Obama's speech won't fool the present minorities..
I believe every man should be judged by character and not color too..that means not claiming Obama's religion is Muslum or insinuating he has no birth certificate ala the Redneck SOB Shelbey and the CPAC speakers..I too think Rice is the smartest Republican, and have seen no white Republicans that come close..Her only sign of stupidity was staying with Bush the entire 8 years.I would have preferred Bush exercise good judgement the past 8 years instead of his body.
I would support Kerry's military record of actually fighting in Viet Nam over Bush's hiding out in Alabama bars with his Daddy's help..I will choose Obama's potential and intellect over Palin's inability to name ONE newspaper or periodical that she reads..
As for dropping magazine and newspaper subscriptions,people have to choose eating over reading because of Bush's economic policies.As for Saudi Arabia, we tolerate their culture to protect our oil and defense interests,nothing else..where was the Republicans' concern for this the past 40 years when they continually refused to pass higher MPG ratings for our cars?
I'm tired of Republicans claiming there is no global warming or pollution-causing problems, and trotting out corporate paid shills to spout that nonsense.
I'm tired of big biz and Republicans sending all our $ and jobs to Mexico,China and India because they ignore pollution controls and pay slave wages and use child labor.
I'm tired of Democrats naively spending billions to make us lower pollution without threatening to change trade pacts with countries that don't.
I'm just as tired of spending billions on the War on Drugs as I am the War on Poverty..did we learn nothing from Prohibition?What has it done except enrich the Mexican drug cartels?What is the point of arresting pot smokers and ruining lives and spending billions to do it? Why is alcohol allowed to be the drug of choice with the carnage on highways and alcoholism running rampant through high schools and colleges?The cost and damage of fighting the pot users far outweighs the damage done by smoking it..Decriminalize it ,make it a misdemeanor and fight the Coke and meth crowd instead,,that's the real danger to this country..How many people fight and kill people driving under pot instead of alcohol? Ron Paul is at least right on that one issue..if you cry "keep the government out of our lives",then why aren't you fighting for this?.
I'm tired of illegal aliens too..but where's your rant against corporations turning their back,when hiring them at farms,construction sites and meat packing plants to pad profits and at the expense of American workers?
I'm tired of the excuse"They're just doing the jobs that American workers won't do".Where is your free market excuse,when the market demands you pay legitimate workers a decent wage if you can't find cheap illegal workers?
I'm tired of Republicans allowing Mexican truckers to come in this country with dangerous trucks and non English speaking drivers to undercut the cost of paying American truckers.
I'm tired of champagne Conservatives and oxycontin radio "journalists" who have never worn the uniform of this Republic..Reagan, Cheney,Rumsfeld,John Wayne..but wrap themselves in the flag and push war at every chance and place that they decide is a threat,but rag only on Kerry's military record..
I'm tired of Republicans acting like they are the only ones concerned about our troops..65% of the troops that donated to campaigns contributed to the Democrats last election,so don't claim a monopoly on that subject..
where was the compassion of Bush and the Republicans last year when he was against raising GI benefits because it would cause a shortage of new recruits..what a dispicable move by a 2-faced group of "concerned patriots"
I too, am tired of Obama and the Dems closing Gitmo and banning waterboarding,but the Patriot Act should be regulated for abuse when it comes to wiretaps..never forget the Hoover FBI abuse that went on for many years..
I'm tired of bipartisanship too..try it once,and if it won't work,take the gloves off and slug it out..but once the fight is decided,shut up,take it like a man and save the fight for the next election..the Republicans need to call a waahmbulance and go lick their wounds til 2010..
I'm tired of the sense of entitlement too..tired of the middle class paying the benefits of the waahbaby deadbeats and listening to the upper class waah about robbing their wealth when the've had it way too good since Reagan..
I'm tired of the poverty pimps,redneck pimps,goober farmer pimps and Mexican baby factory pimps that are bleeding our taxpayers dry.
I'm tired of DHS not being allowed to report illegal aliens when they apply for benefits..
I'm tired of wealthy bankers and Republican politicians making stupid mistakes and refusing any blame for making them..
Speaking of poor,I'm tired of Republican politicians with multiple homes,colored hired help, and too many cars crying poor when they get any tax increase..The majority of Americans didn't have that stuff in 1970,1870,and won't in 2070, but we knew we were "poor".The "wealthy wimps" have to keep changing the definition of wealthy to keep their obscene tax breaks flowing.
I'm real tired of Republicans who only take responsibility for their own lives and deny any irresponsibility for their actions.
I'm tired of them blaming the government,or class discrimination,or big whatever their problems.
I'm tired of Rush Bimbo speaking at CPAC,giving speeches that are channeled from the spirit of Adolph Hitler,hoping America totally collapses in the next 4 years to regain Conservative destruction of this country.
I'm tired of seeing his Hermann Goerring like body spit venom while his oxycontin destroyed cochlear implant soaks up the Nazi-like chants of "U.S.A." from his brainless followers.
I'm really tired of the Republicans trotting out token blacks and Indians as a symbol of opening up the Party, while the real phony Wizard of Oz hides behind the curtain,hiding its mostly racist redneck and farmbelt and biblebelt white face.
Yes, I'm damned tired too buddy.But I'm also glad to be 60.Because,mostly, I'm not going to see the world the Republicans are trying to make.I'm just sorry for my daughter.

I am a Navy Viet Nam era veteran from Oklahoma. I don't post ignorant blogs..I just respond to them.

[Doug]

Do our troops sometimes misbehave? Sure.. Does
this compare with the atrocities that were the policy of our enemies for the
last fifty years-and still are? Not even close.

DOUG
Typical Republican lies. "Misbehave"? Our troops systematically tortured people--and used doctors to make them well enough to endure more torture--even though it has been known for decades that torture does not work--and this is "misbehaving"?

It reminds me of Rush "Love those drugs" Limbaugh claiming that the torture was nothing more than what one gets as a prank in a fraternity.

Disgusting.

[Dardedar]

DOUG
"Misbehave"? Our troops systematically tortured people--...

DAR
To death.

It's clear Mr. Hall doesn't realize what he was volunteering for.

[Betsy]

i have invited the letter sender to come here and respond; as well as inviting another conservative fox-ditto-head from facebook to come debate his position here. I even encouraged them by saying we would LOVE to have someone come present their position and debate it without doing as some (Galt) do and hit and run without a proper defense. But so far, neither have shown up. Too bad.

[Dardedar]

DAR
Twice I have tried to post my response to his letter on his blog (I even took out one or two of the bad words, i.e. "shit"). Seems it's being censored since other comments went up yesterday. Right-wingers can never compete on a level playing field.

13,648 posts on our forum and we have never censored a single one.

D.

[Dardedar]

DAR
Update: The guy did post my response after I sent one along complaining about being censored. Maybe there was a delay (doubtful).

So I have been posting and roasting a little at the guy's site. Pointing out some whoppers. He hasn't responded to anything except to post some insults, called me a cockroach, liar, coward etc. Then he said I was a coward and couldn't post comments unless I included my complete name, address, phone number and email in each post. So I did.

Today he attempts to insult me by saying I suffer from Bright Guy Disease.

Here is his post along with my submitted response. It may not be up yet because, unlike the freedom we enjoy here, all posts are submitted for "approval" by Herr Bob (and they call Obama a fascist).

***
Wednesday, April 15, 2009

Bright Guy Disease

Recent exchanges reminded me of this essay I wrote a few years ago. It's in my book, Chaos for Breakfast, was published in several newsletters, including the Mensa Bulletin, and translated into Dutch for the Mensa organization in Holland. It's my take on what psychologists call Narcissistic Personality Disorder. ~Bob

Avoiding Bright Guy Disease

Is it just me, or is “Bright-Guy Disease” (BGD) on the rise? Oh, you may call it by a different name, but we’ve all had co-workers, board members or bosses with it.

“Bright-Guy Disease” is my name for the condition that too-often afflicts very smart people, who have usually been very successful. Because of their intellect, they’ve frequently had to deal with folks who aren’t as sharp as they are. Since they are so successful, at some point they subconsciously conclude that everybody else (with few exceptions) is dumber then they are.

If they have an idea, it has to be a great idea, because they are so much smarter then you. If you disagree with their idea, you must be not just refuted, but crushed, because disagreeing not only proves how stupid you are, but means you fail to recognize their brilliance.

If you have an idea, it must be dumb, because if it was a good idea, they would have thought of it first. After all, they are so much smarter then you.

In my experience, “Bright-Guy Disease” most often affects men, perhaps because the glass ceiling has kept women from equal levels of success, perhaps because girls are socialized to be cooperative, while boys are socialized to be competitive. As though to make up for this, the few cases I’ve observed in women seem to be particularly virulent.

What are the symptoms?

Fellows with BGD talk more then they listen—a LOT more. Larry King says he never learned anything while he was talking. But the BGD-victims don’t need to learn anything—they already know it all.

BGD sufferers will frequently be angry and will often shout to make a point. This is perfectly justified to correct your error, just as you would feel justified in shouting to keep a small, not-to-intelligent child from putting his hand in the fire.

People with BGD conclude they are experts in many fields, since they’ve been successful in one. They know more about the law then any attorney, more about medicine then any doctor, and certainly more about association management then you do.

They will also not hesitate to bend the facts to fit their worldview—since they are always right, facts are things that simply must be made to agree with them. Should the facts ever indisputably prove they are wrong, they will simply move on and stop discussing the issue—but they will remember who proved them wrong.

Unfortunately, victims of BGD are always the last to recognize the symptoms. If you think you might be suffering from BGD, ask yourself three questions:

Do I respect the people around me for their knowledge, experience and intellect? Everyone knows more than you do about something. Anyone can have an idea that is better then yours. One of the best advisors I’ve had in association management was a part-time janitor, Bob Murray, well past retirement age, who simply had great insights into the way the office was working and staff interactions.

When was the last time I changed my point of view because of someone else’s opinion? If you can’t recall, it may be because you have BGD.

Do I find myself angry a lot of the time with people who disagree with me? Sure, we all get angry over integrity or performance issues, but divergent points of view are valuable.

Coping with BGD

Just recognizing the problem will help keep you out of the line of fire. Confrontation with BGD victims is to be avoided, hard as that may be. They will simply increase the level of their rhetoric until you are beaten down. And they can be vindictive if you cross them.

They enjoy confrontation and arguments because they need to prove, daily, how much smarter they are then you. (Update--today they spend a lot of time commenting on blogs, trying to put you down to reassure themselves of how smart and valuable they are.)

Keep in mind that, while some folks are awed by their intellect and success, many others will recognize them for what they are, so you will have allies. But don’t lose your cool and get into a battle with them—it seldom helps. (Been there, did that, still bleeding.)

Instead, give them enough rope to hang themselves. If their idea is really wrong, the longer they expound on it, the more people will realize it, without help from you.

Approach them obliquely. Phrases like, “You’re absolutely right, I’m just worried about X.” Or, “I agree, and hope that X doesn’t derail the plan.” X, of course, is some inconvenient fact that doesn’t fit their idea. People with BGD will often slowly change points of view, or modify ideas to fit the facts, maintaining that was their position all along. The strategy is to guide them to the correct path while letting them claim credit for being there all along.

Of course, if all else fails, you can take the approach once taken by an attorney speaking to a fellow lawyer with BGD.

First Attorney: “You know, Darrell, between us we know everything there is to know.”

BGD Attorney: “How’s that, George?”

First Attorney: “Well, Darrell, you know everything there is to know in the whole world except that you’re a jerk—and I know that you’re a jerk!”

But this might not be the best approach with your boss!

Posted by TartanMarine at 7:04 PM

Labels: Bright Guy Disease

***
My response:

****
DAR
What a curious and unfortunate notion. To actually convince yourself and try to convince others that being "bright" is a bad thing and something to be compared to a "disease." To be so opposed to reason and the human intellect that you actually despise it.

And after all the build up in your little story what are we left for a finale? A simple grade school insult, "you're a jerk!"

Sorry I'm "bright" Bob. Not sure what can be done about it. Maybe if I listen to Limbaugh more? Attend a Glen Beck meeting? That seems to work for a lot of people.

Anyway, I don't think I have called you dumb, and I certainly haven't referred to myself as smart (although thanks for the sideways compliment). I'm just an Arkansas goat farmer with a high school education and I dropped by to see if any on the far right would have the courage or capability of defending their beliefs in an honest, cogent, way.

So far, it ain't looking good.

Darrel.
--------------------
Incidentally, you probably know this already but the idea that conservatives are generally stupid goes way back. I don't know if it's true (I am not sure what is wrong with them) but one philosopher pointed out this tendency about 150 years ago. Course, if you attended one of the teabag parties today you got to see this first hand:

"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.”
--John Stuart Mill, letter to the Conservative MP, Sir John Pakington (March 1866)

***
Join in here: http://tartanmarine.blogspot.com/

[Savonarola]

And after all the build up in your little story what are we left for a finale? A simple grade school insult, "you're a jerk!"

For online conversations, people get the default amount of respect from me until they do something rude or incredibly stupid. After that, I'm more likely to act like a jerk. Here's how that likelihood pans out: The more likely I still am to learn something, the less likely I am to be a jerk. The less likely I am to learn something, the more likely I am to be a jerk. The reason is simple. When my conversation partner has been so out-debated that s/he has nothing left but insults and stupidity, I get to be correct and be correct in a way that rubs it in. Call me a jerk all you want; I'd rather be a jerk than be wrong. In other words: I may be a jerk, but I'm not an idiot. (But it's not really that I'm a jerk; it's that s/he is an idiot, and I treat the person accordingly.)

Anyway, I don't think I have called you dumb, and I certainly haven't referred to myself as smart (although thanks for the sideways compliment). I'm just an Arkansas goat farmer with a high school education and I dropped by to see if any on the far right would have the courage or capability of defending their beliefs in an honest, cogent, way.

So -- by the blogger's admission -- either Darrel's a smart cookie, or this blogger guy is a bona fide dipstick. (Could be both, of course.)

[Doug]

*Fellows with BGD talk more then they listen—a LOT more.
*BGD sufferers will frequently be angry and will often shout to make a point.
*People with BGD conclude they are experts in many fields, since they’ve been successful in one.
*They will also not hesitate to bend the facts to fit their worldview—since they are always right, facts are things that simply must be made to agree with them.

DOUG
This is such nonsense. This is nothing more than constructing a straw man and then arguing ad hominem against the pretended opponent!

It is not uncommon to see conservatives and fundamentalists use this line of fallacious reasoning. It is a kind of denial. They can't accept that someone could be intelligent, think about the issues, and conclude that the conservative/fundamentalist position is wrong.

So they have to pretend that if someone is intelligent enough to reject the conservative/fundamentalist view, that person ALSO has an ego problem or some other psychological defect.

So what about humble, nonagressive, quiet, honest (non-fact-bending) smart people who reject the conservative/fundamentalist view? So the conservative/fundamentalist gives up on defending the position on its merits and just goes ad hominem with trumped-up charges about ego and honesty.

Pathetic.

[Betsy]

in that description above, it sounds like the guy is describing right-wingnuts - a little case of the pot calling the kettle black...

[L.Wood]

I read the entire online tartan marine post. He's really sad. His newsletters are sad. Perhaps he is fading and fails to recognize it.
Does he wish to bask in his military glory days and thinks little of anyone who doesn't share his deep appreciation for the military?

Tartan is so full of straw man arguments he cannot be anything other than a political animal. Many of them traffic in straw man
issues. What comes to mind is the Ark. representative from Cedarville (Beverly ?) who accused the people of Eureka Springs
of openly "behaving like animals", as a justification for outlawing ES's partnership registry. People all over the world can behave like animals. If you hang around Cedarville, AR often enough likely you will see people behaving like animals.

[Dardedar]

DAR
It seems now, marine Bob is going to censor my posts. Two or three I sent up last night (and one little one the night before) apparently weren't "approved." Gone. And this after he challenged me to "stand up for what I believe," and criticized Canada for having an anti-hate speech law which therefore means they don't allow 100% free speech all the time (no country does, try making a bomb joke in an airport). (Generally I am opposed to anti-hate speech laws but am open to being persuaded. For instance, need to give the Germans some slack as they try to keep the neo-nazis down).

But this isn't my first rodeo. I know how these censoring hypocrites operate. And I hate having good work/material go to waste. So I keep copies of everything. I'll post it here later.

Don't be afraid to jump in fearless freethinkers!

http://tartanmarine.blogspot.com/

D.

[Savonarola]

It seems now, marine Bob is going to censor my posts. Two or three I sent up last night (and one little one the night before) apparently weren't "approved." Gone.

Give him time. Maybe the fact that it's a weekend changes his internet schedule.

But, in the future -- if you haven't already been saving copies on your computer -- save your comments, then add them to this thread if he won't approve them. [See also below.]

Don't be afraid to jump in fearless freethinkers!

It's been tempting, but you were doing a pretty good job with no help. (He's the kind of nutball who'll accuse you of calling in backup because you were "losing.") But this could be good for FFForums: If you're posting your censored comments here, then maybe someone else can point this out (without getting censored, of course) so that the guy can't reasonably claim that you haven't been trying to post. (If he says that your comments are "mysteriously" not showing up for his approval, then he should be willing to copy and paste from here.) Maybe then we'll get more traffic here.

[Dardedar]

It seems now, marine Bob is going to censor my posts. Two or three I sent up last night (and one little one the night before) apparently weren't "approved." Gone.

Give him time. Maybe the fact that it's a weekend changes his internet schedule.

DAR
Nope, he has posted comments from people a day after I posted mine (for approval). I also tried to post them again today and nothing (but a new article is up). He's a blow hard and a coward. Bad combo.

But, in the future -- if you haven't already been saving copies on your computer -- save your comments, then add them to this thread if he won't approve them.

DAR
Oh yes, I have them all, and they will be going up. I never interact in a forum where cowards are in control, without keeping copies. I've been doing this a long time.

If you're posting your censored comments here, then maybe someone else can point this out (without getting censored, of course) so that the guy can't reasonably claim that you haven't been trying to post. (If he says that your comments are "mysteriously" not showing up for his approval, then he should be willing to copy and paste from here.)

DAR
This guy is a real coward. And very intellectually lazy. That's how people get so lost in the first place. He would have no interest going and getting or even considering my comments. He just runs and surely wants me to go away. My goal is really not to harass the guy or cause trouble on his blog but rather to cause some actual thinking to occur. If people want to believe idiotic inanities ("Obama is a Muslim, wasn't born in the US" etc) they are quite free to sit at home and believe this. However, if they want to post this information in a public forum where free speech and dissenting opinion are allowed, I am going to exercise the right to correct them. The internet is a wonderful tool. It can be used to inform, fact check and educate. This fellow, who represents just a small pimple on the behind of a colossal elephant of American stupidity, uses the internet to make people more stupid. It's time to start standing up to these people. They are a national disgrace and an international embarrassment. I intend to confront them.

I would just like to someday find a rightwinger who will defend their positions in a reasoned, intelligent and forthright way. This is not too much to ask.

Maybe then we'll get more traffic here.

DAR
It would be really nice to have some rightwingers post something of substance. I have yet to find one with any balls.

D.

PS, I just had an idea. I will start a new thread devoted to roasting this guy's junk. I quote all of the comments I am referring to so my posts are pretty much self explanatory. I'll try to post them on his blog along with the information that they are also being cross posted here.

These crooks, liars, cheats and scoundrels can run, but in the free market of the internet, they can't hide.

D.

[Dardedar]

Here are some selected comments I have posted to Bob Hall's blog The Old Jarhead.

******
Ginger Simpson said...
"For the record, I'm not praying for Obama to fail, he's failing all on his own."

DAR
For the record, prayer doesn't work, so pray away. Like many around here you probably want your president to fail, and thus your country to fail (how patriotic) but your claim is wrong anyway.

Observe:

****
"Americans More Optimistic; Still Hate GOP

The latest New York Times poll is loaded with good news for the Obama administration and news that would be devastating for the GOP if it were ever able to penetrate the conservative-media echo chamber. While the public is still pretty pessimistic about the future, it's considerably less so than it was before Barack Obama took office. Thirty-nine percent of respondents in the Times poll think the country is going in the right direction and 53 percent say the wrong direction, a substantial improvement from January, when the numbers were 15 and 79, respectively. Similarly, 20 percent of those polled think the economy is getting better and 34 percent worse, versus 7 and 54 in January.

But it's the political numbers that are truly striking. Obama has a 66 percent approval rating, which is the highest this poll has recorded, while the GOP's favorability is at 31 percent, the lowest the poll has recorded in 25 years of asking the question. Arguably more remarkable still is that, asked whether Obama or the GOP Congress would be more likely to make "the right decisions about the nation's economy," respondents broke for Obama 63 percent to 20 percent. That means that even within the 31 percent rump that holds a positive view of the GOP, at least a third trust Obama's instincts on the economy equally or more. And why shouldn't they? Despite Rush Limbaugh's best efforts just 2 percent of respondents blame Obama for the state of the economy, compared to 33 percent who blame George W. Bush."

--New Republic, April 7, 2009

Link: http://preview.tinyurl.com/dz2cp3

I bet FOX News forgot to tell you about this.

****NEXT****

SPARKY said...
"Mr. Obama did declare today that he will be 'tougher on piracy' now."

DAR
Good job Obama. Contrast this with the profound inaction and incompetence of Bush:

Nov, 2008:

"U.S. President George W. Bush has been briefed about increasing attacks by Somali pirates off east Africa, and the United States is consulting with other U.N. Security Council members on ways to combat the threat, the White House said on Wednesday.

Calling it a "a very complicated issue," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino gave no hint of what, if any, action the United States might take following the hijacking earlier this week of a Saudi supertanker with a $100 million oil cargo."

Link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRe ... M520081119

D.

****NEXT****

***

Bill said...
"75% of Americans are against amnesty for illegal aliens,..."

DAR
It depends how you word the question. "Amnesty" is a loaded word that skews results. But if that's the word to use, Reagan gave them amnesty. How'd that work out? Not bad.

BILL
80% of Americans were opposed to NAFTA, but Clinton and the Republicans passed it because they "knew what was best for America".

DAR
Actually, polls were split at the time. Now they are supportive. Apparently leadership knew what was best for America.

Reference:

"Canadian opinion, reported in a June 2003 Ipsos Reid survey, found that a clear majority (70%) of Canadians supported NAFTA,..."

"A poll on NAFTA conducted among the public in all three countries by Ipsos Reid in 2002 explored preferences... The public in all three countries favored increasing trade or keeping it the same (75% in Canada, 73% in the United States and 58 percent in Mexico wanted to increase trade or keep it the same).

Thus a variety of polls conducted after 7-10 years of experience with NAFTA indicate that public opinion in all three countries generally supports the pact and increasing trade in general."

http://tinyurl.com/c6lwp5

BILL
"The colonists had a revolution because of "taxation without representation".

DAR
Now you have taxation and representation too! The colonists would be pleased. And be happy, Obama just lowered your taxes. Be sure and pay them. That's coming up isn't it?

D.
-----------------
"I also dropped the bottom rate from fifteen percent to ten percent, because, by far, the vast majority of the help goes to the people at the bottom end of the economic ladder."

--G.W. Bush, lying during the first Gore debate. The bottom 60 percent got 14.7 percent.

****NEXT****

Heroditus Huxley said...
"We haven't had a good, conservative presidential candidate since Ronald Regan... We likely won't, either, until the Republican party admits that drifting left toward what DC perceives as center is what's lost them the House, Senate, and Presidency."

DAR
Just keep believing that.

The GOP is dead in the water until it comes out of the right-wing hinterlands, shuts off the Limbaugh's, Becks and Hannity's and leaves the idiotic, fake rage, teabag tantrum parties behind.

It'll be a few years until they figure this out. The more the better. The impetus will probably be a desire to not be completely irrelevant anymore. It's cold in those hinterlands.

If you don't believe me, maybe you'll consider the argument made by conservative David Frum:

***
Why Rush is Wrong

The party of Buckley and Reagan is now bereft and dominated by the politics of Limbaugh. A conservative's lament.

by David Frum

Excerpt:

"On the one side, the president of the United States: soft-spoken and conciliatory, never angry, always invoking the recession
and its victims. This president invokes the language of "responsibility," and in his own life seems to epitomize that ideal: He is
physically honed and disciplined, his worst vice an occasional cigarette. He is at the same time an apparently devoted husband
and father. Unsurprisingly, women voters trust and admire him.

And for the leader of the Republicans? A man who is aggressive and bombastic, cutting and sarcastic, who dismisses the
concerned citizens in network news focus groups as "losers." With his private plane and his cigars, his history of drug dependency
and his personal bulk, not to mention his tangled marital history, Rush is a walking stereotype of self-indulgence—exactly the image
that Barack Obama most wants to affix to our philosophy and our party. And we're cooperating! Those images of crowds of
CPACers cheering Rush's every rancorous word—we'll be seeing them rebroadcast for a long time.

Rush knows what he is doing. The worse conservatives do, the more important Rush becomes as leader of the ardent remnant.
The better conservatives succeed, the more we become a broad national governing coalition, the more Rush will be sidelined."

Link:

http://www.bartcop.com/rush-is-wrong-frum.htm

DAR
Until then, enjoy those teabag parties!

******NEXT*****

DAR
Speaking of "magic" and "weasel" words, watch how Sowell chooses his words here and carefully leaves out context to give the wrong impression:

"China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. government bonds."

Yes, but that is a fairly recent occurrence (they surpassed Japan, August of last year). Yet, they steadily bought US bonds, every month at least into January.

SOWELL
"But, instead of buying more of those bonds as our skyrocketing national debt leads to more bonds being issued, China has been selling some of its U.S. government bonds this year."

DAR
Carefully worded and misleading. China HAS been buying more bonds but in January and February, they sold some and then resumed buying in March.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/c4dxox

Sowell is playing word games while pretending it's wrong to do that. In January of '08 China held $492.6 billion in US Treasury Securities. By January of this year they held $739.6 billion, a vast increase. Yet Sowell implies the opposite when he says: "instead of buying more of those bonds..."

The record shows they have been buying more of these bonds and faster than anyone else.

See the month my month chart here:

http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

And I unpacked that much distortion within his first two sentences. Just imagine what's in the rest.

D.
--------------------
“It is the duty of every man, as far as his ability extends, to detect and expose delusion and error. But nature has not given to everyone a talent for the purpose; and among those to whom such a talent is given there is often a want of disposition or of courage to do it.”

--Thomas Paine, preface to Age of Reason, part 3

*****NEXT*****

HALL:
Darrel just hates Sowell because he's black and much better educated.>>

DAR
a) I don't hate Sowell, I just know him to be dishonest, or at a minimum a misinformed conservative, like yourself.
b) He's black? I didn't notice. Like Stephen Colbert, I don't see color. And do remember, it's your party that is up to the eyeballs in racists, not mine (registered independent and rather conservative).
c) He is certainly better educated than I am but why this should be insulting to me is not clear. Just because a person is educated doesn't mean they know how to think. You haven't learned that yet?

HALL:
Darrel doesn't have the stones to sign his comments with his full name and address, as I do.>>

DAR
You didn't ask.

Darrel Henschell
3663 N. Old Wire Rd.
Fayetteville, AR. 72703

I frequently gave the url to my website (fayfreethinkers.com) which has this information. You're not big on details are you Bob?

HALL:
People ask why I allow Darrel's comments to be published since I moderate the blog.>>

DAR
I bet they do. Why let someone post who actually promotes questioning and thinking, responds to points directly and references claims rather than just goose stepping with "dittos" all the time?

I have a forum too Bob. We've had 13,700 posts since 2006 and have not censored a single post (aside from porn spam of course). But people want you to censor/ban my comments? The far right is so very consistent: can't compete on a level playing field and like to censor while at the same time going on about "freedom of speech." Sad.

HALL
I want folks to see what the comments of a bedwetting cowardly leftist are like. It can only help our cause.>>

DAR
What about my posts suggest that I am a coward Bob? Do tell. Be specific. Give me an example. We'll see who's a coward. I have specific and repeatedly pointed out factual errors on this blog. You don't respond. You run. I don't do that. If I do, then you can rightfully call me a coward.

What your cause needs is a little contrasting opinion. Too much incest around here. It's making you all dumb. The errors compound. This is not good, not healthy.

HALL:
I asked Darrel... what he had ever done to serve the country. He had no answer.>>

DAR
When did you do this? I had no idea you asked this. I am serving my country right now. We need all hands on deck. Enough with the nonsense, denial of reality and rightwing gibberish. The country has been put in a ditch by rightwing nutbars who can't think straight and I have a little knack for helping them along. That is, unless they are too cowardly to consider having their facts corrected.

HALL:
Wonder if he has a job, or is just pushing the socialist agenda because he hopes those of us with jobs will be forced to share the wealth with him.>>

DAR
Hey Bob, instead of concocting imaginary (and false) personal attacks out of thin air (I've had my own business for 19 years and paid about $22,000 in income tax last fall) why don't you try responding to my points directly? That's what I do. It's a little harder work but it's much more rewarding.

Unfortunately, you responded to nothing in this post. It's nothing but baseless insults. I'm certain you can do better than this.

Darrel.
--------------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith, economist, author

****NEXT****

Holly Chism said...
"Funny. We tried it that way the last election. It failed. Spectacularly."

DAR
So McCain didn't win because he wasn't far enough to the right? That's your reading of the country? The country voted for a "man with a tan" by such a margin that Obama could have spotted McCain California AND New York and he still would have won. But if only McCain had been further to the right....

I think that's probably wrong.

HOLLY:
And Frum is a CINO--only when it's convenient...>>

DAR
That's not relevant to the merits of his argument. It's very succinct and contained in his last two sentences above. Can you show where is he wrong in these last two sentences?

I think he's spot on. Republicans/neo-cons whatever will not become a "broad national governing coalition" by moving further to the right. But it looks like you guys are going to try it so we may get to see what happens! This is exciting.

Go Palin!

D.
----------------
"A growing number of political scientists, analysts and strategists are making the case for a realignment of political power in the U.S. to a new Democratic majority based on two trends: 1) the increasing numbers of black and Hispanic voters, and 2) a decisive shift away from the Republican Party by the suburban and well-educated constituencies that once formed the backbone of the GOP."

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5636#p18043

****NEXT****

TARTAN: Stand up publicly for what you believe.>>

DAR
I do that all the time.

TARTAN
From now on, full name, address, phone and e-mail address on your posts, or I'll reject them & you can find another hobby.>>

DAR
You called me a "bed wetting coward" and challenged me to provide my full name and address, I provided this and now you are requiring I provide all of my personal information on every one of my posts or you will censor my comments. This is a special rule you are requiring only for me and no one else.

This is your "level playing field."

You know, on our forum people don't have to have their comments "approved" they just post them. And they can use their real name, or not. It works really well. Freedom of speech. Seems a little communist for people to have to get their "speech" approved before it is allowed, don't you think Bob?

And now, rather than having the courage to respond substantively to any of my points, you call me a "cockroach" and require special rules for me, hoping some of your "followers" will call, threaten and harass me. Besides threats and insults do you ever just like to talk about the issues Bob?

You might consider why are you so afraid of having your beliefs challenged. Could it be because you're afraid they won't hold up to scrutiny? I think so. And if that's what you are afraid of, I assure you, you have reason to be, because they won't.

Darrel Henschell
3663 N. Old Wire Rd.
Fayetteville, AR 72703
ph: 479-273-7076
fayfreethinkers@yahoo.com

-------------------
http://fayfreethinkers.com/forums/

****NEXT****

TartanMarine said...
Well, we’ve smoked out Darrell’s address, at least. When he says I didn’t ask, he means publically on the blog. He knows I’ve sent him several e-mails asking him to identify himself as I do. Just a little white lie.>>

DAR
a) I have never received an email from you (but do feel free to send me one).
b) I don't lie.

TARTAN: As to Sowell being misinformed or not knowing how to think, he has a degree from Harvard... etc.>>

DAR
That's nice, so does Obama. Having degrees doesn't mean you know how to think or are right on any specific point. That's a pretty obvious fallacy. I am not so much impressed with degrees but rather, good arguments. Rather than respond to my points regarding Sowell's article, you respond with a list of degrees and the claim that "a whole lot of people" thinks he "thinks pretty well."

This is your idea of a rebuttal?

D.

****NEXT****

DAR
Bob continues to substitute insults for reasoned argument. There is a difference. Let me take a few minutes to unpack his response which is just a string of fallacies.

****
TartanMarine said...
Exactly, Darrel. You have "Bright Guy Disease.">>

DAR
It's just bizarre that after having called me a liar and a cockroach you reach into your bag of insults and hit upon the idea of:

"hey, I'll accuse him of being intelligent, and then I'll call it a disease. That'll get him good."

Oh that intelligence would be a contagious disease and you could come down with a serious infection! But unfortunately, this is not how things work.

Aside from the fact that this is all a distraction from your inability to actually respond to my points, let me also add that it's not nice to make fun of someone with a disease.

BOB:
That is, you are bright, so you have decided that anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid.>>

DAR
I never said this nor do I believe it. You are producing this from your bottom. Do you find it useful to make things up and then pretend to knock them down? This is known as the strawman fallacy. You can learn about this here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

BOB:
And that you know everything about everything, more so than people who have studied it.>>

DAR
I have never said this, nor do I believe it. Why don't you try being honest and address my actual comments rather than making up beliefs I do not have and comments I have never made?

BOB:
...for example, you know more about economics than a professor who has published books and has a PhD.>>

DAR
I never said this nor do I believe it. My comments regarding Sowell's article were specific and directed at TWO sentences. I kept it very simple and reference my claims carefully. You have addressed not one word of it but have said you consider it a rebuttal to mention that he "writes books," has "degrees," and many people think he "thinks pretty well."

This response is so silly, and pathetic, it is almost not possible to make fun of it. Let me try this. If Obama made some comment, two sentences worth, and you researched a response to it and showed the comment was misleading because he left out some important information, would you consider it persuasive rebuttal if I responded by listing his degrees (Harvard professor), noted that he wrote books and people thought he "thinks pretty well?"

I certainly hope not!

Think about it Bob. THINK.

BOB:
You are a classic case.>>

DAR
A classic case of being, according to you a "bright guy." Ouch, stop, it hurts.

BOB:
As I mentioned, both the US & the Dutch Mensa published that article,...>>

DAR
It would not be possible for me to care less about your claim because I know that claims are not necessarily true or false due to them coming from some "authority." This is another fallacy you really ought to give up leaning on. You can learn about this here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

Incidentally, I knew a member of Mensa who thought the moon landing was faked. I know a person locally with a Ph.D. who is a borderline imbecile. Sometimes people can be very smart in one area, and profoundly lacking in common sense many other areas. My comments about Sowell's article were very specific and rather mundane. He is a political ideologue and he spins things. This should not come as a surprise.

BOB:
...but, hey, you are smarter then them because you are smarter than anyone,...>>

DAR
I have never claimed this nor to I believe it. Strawman fallacy.

BOB:
...so you found no value in the piece.>>

DAR
I never claimed this nor to I believe it. Strawman fallacy.

BOB:
As I said in the article, folks with it can't see it in themselves.>>

DAR
Saying things in articles doesn't make them so. Perhaps I can help you learn this fact.

BOB
Thanks for proving my case. ~Bob>>

DAR
It's not clear that you remotely understand what is involved in "proving" a case.

Hopefully you haven't caught NSBGD!

(Not So Bright Guy Disease)

I hear it's very common in some circles.

Darrel.
--------------------
"In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: "Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." -–Voltaire

[Dardedar]

More responses I have posted to Bob Hall's blog The Old Jarhead.

****
April 15, 2009 10:40 PM
Ginger Simpson said...
Our Tea Party in Nashville started with rules of decorum,... The crowd was peaceful, pleasant and the whole experience exhilarated me because I finally felt like I did something positive.>>

DAR
I am glad you went to the Fox News Tea party event, had a positive experience, and were able to protest the tax cut Obama gave you. Protest and dissent is a high form of patriotism and should anyone try and ever stop you from exercising this right you can know that an organization I support with be there to defend your rights as they have so many times in the past. The ACLU.


****NEXT****

April 15, 2009 11:43 PM
Michelle said...
I think you are right that many conservatives are dumb, but what about all the dumb liberals? How do you explain them?>>

DAR
You are so right. Human ignorance hardly stops at any party line. It is ubiquitous and I fight it as best I can where ever it lurks. Everyone should. It's a civil duty. If you read the comment I quoted carefully you will notice it doesn't say conservative have the marked cornered, it simply says: "stupid people are generally Conservative." There are lots of dumb liberals too. But I think liberalism has a slight advantage here, being, by definition more open to correction. Note a standard definition:

liberal: Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded --American Heritage Dictionary

D.
-------------------
The conservative icon William F. Buckley defined conservatism this way his book "Up from Liberalism,"

“Conservatism is the tacit acknowledgment that all that is finally important in human experience is behind us; that the crucial explorations have been undertaken, and that it is given to man to know what are the great truths that emerged from them. Whatever is to come cannot outweigh the importance to man of what has gone before.”

To this, George McGovern observed:

"The business of conservatives is, in other words, to cling tightly to the past, and although such a stance can be admirable, a stale and musty doctrine is of little use at a time when the nation needs not to fear the future but to seek out ways to improve it.” --George McGovern

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DAR
So we see Bob choosing again to not respond to a single point, or answer a single question but instead to only continue on with insults and fallacies. This is unfortunate. And now by noting I am from Canada he is excited to explore an entirely new area for him to act like a fool and heap juvenile personal abuse.

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TartanMarine said...
Well, I apologize Darrel. I’m going to leave you alone and not respond to you any more.>>

DAR
We'll see if that one is true. You call me a coward and tell me to have the "courage to stand up for my beliefs" and when I do, you run away. Interesting.

BOB:
When you said you were bright, I took you at your word.>>

DAR
When did I say I was bright? Citation please. I think you are confused, this was your claim. I am not interested in who's bright and who's not. I am interested in finding a forthright and honest conservative who will stand up for what they believe and defend/explain their positions with something other than knee jerk cliches and misinformation. Do you know anyone up to such a task Bob? I see them on the TV sometimes but I have yet to interact with one firsthand. And that's a shame. I am sure they exist. I have tended more conservative on several issues over the years and would be open to changing on other issues but I struggle to find people who aren't disingenuous narrow minded windbags who don't know a reasoned position from a hole in the ground.

BOB:
But clearly that didn’t include being bright enough to discern the difference between being intelligent—which is generally a good thing—and being bright,>>

DAR
I am glad you think intelligence is "generally a good thing." That's a start. "Bright" and "intelligent" are synonyms by the way.

BOB:
So I don’t want to provoke you any more. You are a tad fine-tuned, lad.>>

DAR
Guilty as charged. Accuracy and details are important to me. I tuned a nice Steinway for GHW Bush last week actually. I like him more now than I used to. I was against his war against Saddam but now I think I was wrong and he did the right thing.

Do you ever change your mind and learn new things or is that just something you will never be interested in?

BOB:
Welcome.>>

DAR
Thanks. My mother is American, my father is Canadian. I've been here since 1987 and have lived 21 years in Canada and 21 years in the US. With lots of relatives and friends on both sides I have a good deal of first hand experience with what it is like to live in both countries. I am here because of the weather but America has certainly been good to me.

Some intellectually curious people might use this as an opportunity to gain information about what such an experience is like. Others might just use it as an opportunity to hyperventilate, make a fool of themselves and continue to throw childish insults based upon their own personal lack of knowledge.

Can you raise the bar a little or is this the only way you operate?

BOB:
"...with the restrictions on Freedom of Speech in Canada...">>

DAR
This from a person who has to approve messages before they are posted.

I experienced a lot of things in Canada but never a restriction on my speech. It really doesn't come up. Other than a vocal holocaust denier in right-wing Alberta having some trouble I had never even heard of such a restriction. So, much ado about nothing.

BOB:
If you succeed in fixing our health care system, where will the Canadians go for care?>>

DAR
They did get away with underfunding their system for years. There are common sense reasons for this which you may be able to grasp. Partly because they were able to still receive far better results with far less money than the US (and still do).

If you are up to learning something new I recommend you educate yourself on this issue a little. It's a bit of a specialty of mine. You might start with this mythbusting article I posted in our freethinker forum:

HERE

It's quite good. You might learn something new.

If you think the way the US provides medical services to it's citizens is anything but an international disgrace then you might see this too:

60 Minutes: Charity Trying To Make Up For Failing U.S. Health Care System

LINK

People of the world watch in amazement and shake their heads.

BOB:
...when do you expect them [Canada] to elect, ...a “man with a tan” as PM?>>

DAR
I went to school with some native Indians but there is not a large black population in Canada. I suspect Canada wasn't so much into the slavery thing. Racism isn't quite the issue it is here either.

Darrel.
-------------------
"Did you know that Canada ranks above the United States in virtually every measure of health--including outcomes for heart disease, cancer and diabetes? Worldwide, Canada ranks ninth compared to 17th for the United States. To make the issue even more confusing, the US spends 13.7 percent of its gross domestic product on health, while Canada only spends 8.7 percent. And despite spending 13.7 percent of GDP on health care, 15.6 percent of the American population is uninsured -- more than 45 million people."
--Northwest Arkansas Times, pg. 8D, 7/3/05

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Heroditus Huxley said...
Nor do they actually read anything beyond what they want to tear apart, like the fact that this was published in professional journals like the _Mensa Bulletin_>>

DAR
You already admitted my only point regarding the Sowell article:

"Sowell does sometimes let his own outrage come through in his word choice, and doesn't always make sure to include all information."

I was curious enough to do a little investigating to see if he was holding back information in his first comments, which then might mislead people. Turns out he was. I responded to this and skimmed the rest. It's not that it's not full of howlers. For instance, would he really want to defend this claim he makes on page one?

"gun control" laws do not control guns."

Is it really out of the realm of possibility that because something appears in the "Mensa Bulletin" it couldn't contain some misleading information? Really? You're smarter than that Holly, as evidenced by your comment quoted above.

D.

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TartanMarine said...
Every comment comes to me to be moderated. I respond to almost every one with an e-mail, even if just "thanks." Since other people respond to me on those e-mail, not sure why Darrel says he hasn't gotten any.>>

DAR
Solved: I haven't signed up to be a "member/follower," so could not have received one of these private messages.

Best to refrain from calling someone a liar until there is good evidence in hand that they have lied.

D.

****NEXT****

This comment was censored by Bob Hall:

DAR
You make some good points El Cerdo. Tort Reform is a big deal. There are lot's of lawyers down here, and they must be fed, AND they are hungry.

I have often wondered if the Canadian medical system (being a much more lean and efficient machine without the 1,500 insurance companies etc.) suffers in the R & D category, or if this results in unfair mooching off of the US system. So I did a little checking.

Apparently not:

***
Canada's greatest medical research

Canada has produced a disproportionately large number of major biomedical breakthroughs, and a new report released today exhaustively catalogues the best of the best.

The Association of Canadian Academic Healthcare Organizations new report, called "Moving at the Speed of Discovery" (PDF), includes a (very long) list of the top medical discoveries made in Canadian academic hospitals."

DAR
It's quite an impressive list:

LINK

Much of the R & D down here goes for designer drugs which are heavily peddled with hundreds of billions spent on massive advertising campaigns. Then people go to their doctor and ask for the dope. That doesn't happen in Canada.

Oh my, it's worse than I thought:

***
Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds

LINK

Nearly twice as much on advertising, according to the above study.

D.
----------------
"The bottom line is that Canadians enjoy longer, healthier lives than Americans, despite spending far less than we do, while covering every citizen. In a recent survey, only 3.5 percent of Canadians reported feeling that they waited too long for care - a much smaller number than our 15 percent uninsured, who wait quite a bit....

Furthermore, a recent Harris Interactive poll of patients in the leading industrial societies found that Canada ranked first and the United States last in patient satisfaction with health care."

Source

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This comment was censored by Bob Hall:

DAR
I meant to respond to the main comment too. I suppose the VA could be dissolved and could be replaced with private insurance (Gov. footing the bill). Do private insurance companies ever withhold coverage? Of course they do! They do it ALL the time.

Any system is going to have incidences of subjective decision making which results in bad calls and too much or too little service.

The advantage of the Canadian system is that it is so much more efficient and the hundreds of billions saved can potentially be used for denying LESS of those back surgeries.

D.
-----------------
"New England Journal of Medicine finds that health care bureaucracy cost Americans $294.3 billion in 1999. The $1,059 per capita spent on health care administration was more than three times the $307 per capita in paperwork costs under Canada’s national health insurance system. Cutting U.S. health bureaucracy costs to the Canadian level would have saved $209 billion in 1999.

The study was carried out by researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information,...

The authors found that bureaucracy accounted for at least 31% of total U.S. health spending in 1999 vs. 16.7% in Canada."

LINK

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This comment was censored by Bob Hall:

BOB: How mini cars stop global warming

DAR
In 2005 I gave a lecture on the smart car, covering some of the physics but mostly the politics.

The slides for my lecture can be downloaded here:

http://fayfreethinkers.com/powerpoints/

See: "Smart Cars, Dumb Policies"

After a trip to Canada and a nice drive in their turbo diesel model I would have loved to have bought one and brought it down. This was not allowed. "Land of the free" and all that but you can't have a smart car. Not then.

But the good news is the US government will give you a $100,000 tax break if you buy an extra heavy SUV! You can read about this here:

http://fayfreethinkers.com/mythbuster/a ... edom.shtml

See #4 and #7.

Just hope it doesn't flip over. They like to do that.

Regarding the physics, the smart car does have it's fancy "Tridion Hemispherical, steel safety shell" but you're right, when it hit's something considerably bigger (and dumber), it tends to bounce off as you would expect. This is a problem for the people inside the nice hard shell.

But let me reveal what the future holds. Small smart cars are the future. On CNBC today they were discussing that the Hummer brand is being sold (old news), the potential buyer?

Chinese.

There's a bit of irony.

It's being sold because people won't buy them because they know gas/oil will be going up again, profoundly. About two billion folks from China/India are anxious to start drawing from the well and unfortunately, we have no viable substitute as oil becomes more scarce. Not really. Batteries, pound for pound have about 1% of the energy of gasoline so the electric SUV is going to be a while. Electric vehicles will tend to be small. Hummers and their idiotic, wasteful counterparts (I bought GM at $16) will be useful for parking in the yard and planting flowers in.

D.
-------------
Q. Does the President believe that, given the amount of energy Americans consume per capita, how much it exceeds any other citizen in any other country in the world, does the President believe we need to correct our lifestyles to address the energy problem?

MR. FLEISCHER: "That's a big no. The President believes that it's an American way of life, and that it should be the goal of policy makers to protect the American way of life. The American way of life is a blessed one. And we have a bounty of resources in this country. What we need to do is make certain that we're able to get those resources in an efficient way. . ."

--Ari Fleischer, Press briefing, May 7, 2001

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This comment was censored by Bob Hall:

ANON
There are two sentences in the Washington Post article that stand out as profound:

"Yet Western ideals are based on the premise that free speech contains its own protection: Good speech ultimately prevails over bad. There's no blasphemy among free nations, only orthodoxy and those who seek to challenge it."

Yet, a fellow (Mr. Henschel), who has recently challenged some of the orthodoxy around here and was encouraged to "stand up for what you believe" by Bob Hall now reports that his comments are being blocked from this blog. See:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5607#p18093

Why is this? Has he broken some rule? His posts are for the most part well put together and thought out. It's more interesting to see an exchange of ideas than everyone agreeing isn't it?

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This comment was censored by Bob Hall:

ANON
What I want to know is where were the tea bagging parties during the Bush years?

Bush inherited a $128 billion budget surplus (and a bad business cycle) when he took office but quickly squandered it and proceeded to rack up gigantic budget deficits every year.

Under Bush, the national debt grew by more than $4 trillion: the biggest debt increase of any president in U.S. history. He borrowed more foreign money than all previous presidents COMBINED.

Under Bush the national debt went from $5.7 trillion to more than $9.849 trillion. And Bush enjoyed a Republican Senate and House of Representatives during most of his time in office.

Scarborough put it this way in his book in 2004:

"Using the Bush White House's own numbers, the federal government under Bill Clinton grew at an annual rate of 3.4 percent. But over the past four years under George W. Bush and his Republican Congress, the federal government has grown at a staggering rate of 10.4 percent. More damning is the fact that... George
Bush never once vetoed a congressional bill."
--Republican Joe Scarborough, "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day”, pg. 29


"Three years ago the Congressional Budget Office
looked at the promising economic landscape and
projected a $5.6 trillion surplus for the next ten years under Republican leadership. Today we are faced with a $2.9 trillion deficit that will be add to the [7.5 trillion] national debt over the same time period."
--Republican Joe Scarborough, "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day, pg. 100

I am a deficit hawk and hate the debt. I encourage people to watch the video documentary IOUSA. It's on youtube and it's scary.

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This comment was censored by Bob Hall:

Tea Bagging Thread

DAR
Which party has had the largest annual deficits? Examine the record.

Over the last 75 years, Republican administrations have had an average annual deficit of $83.4 billion. The average for Democratic presidents is one fourth of that: $20 billion.

http://hnn.us/articles/8301.html

Since 1959 federal spending has gone up an average $35 billion a year under Democratic presidents, and $60 billion under Republicans.

Republican presidents have increased the national debt by more than $200 billion per year, versus less than a $100 billion per year under Democratic presidents.

http://democraticshortlist.com/compare.htm

And this is not even counting the second term of G.W. Bush.

****
The Old Jarhead

[Betsy]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Thank you for posting it.

You would THINK there would be one single conservative who could respond even somewhat intelligently to these arguments. It's shocking that they can't form a single argument to support their claims.