Concerted Government Effort Violates Church-State Separation

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Concerted Government Effort Violates Church-State Separation

Post by Savonarola »

How did we let the Mt. Soledad thing go unmentioned?

I've been watching this develop for a few days, and though I know perfectly well what's going on, the wackos have managed to work the system to give themselves the greatest possible advantage.

In San Diego, the Mt. Soledad "War Memorial" is under attack. That's because mean people don't want us to honor veterans or those who fell beside them.

Or so the wackos would have you believe. To understand why the "War Memorial" is under attack, you need only see this picture of it:

Image

The "memorial" is on public land and violates the Establishment Clause. A lawsuit was filed in 1989, but repeated shifting and questionable legislation has kept the issue in the courts to the present day.

What else happened in 1989? Shortly after the lawsuit, the "memorial" suddenly became a "memorial." Until that time, it was the Mount Soledad Easter Cross and contained absolutely no mention of veterans or fallen soldiers. There are also many other indicators that there was little or no secular purpose to the display before the frantic attempt to evade the Constitution. There is a very good overview on wikipedia, including a very detailed timeline of events.

The city has done everything under the sun to prevent the removal or destruction of the cross, despite findings from every court with jurisdiction up to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. The Ninth Circuit also struck down the attempted sale of just that small portion of the city park upon which the cross sits as a clearly sectarian act. The cross was ordered to be removed, but the city appealed, and Justice Anthony Kennedy issued a stay, allowing further finagling by city officials.

Despite the indisputable findings of the courts, the city approved the sale of the land to the federal government via eminent domain. Congress pushed the bill through quickly with Bush's approval, and the bill became law earlier this week. This apparently renders all previous court findings moot, as none of the courts went beyond applying California constitutional law to declare that the display is illegal. The unofficial plan is for the land to be declared a national monument in an effort to protect it.

I am unsure as to whether the case will go to the Ninth Circuit or directly to the Supreme Court. Undoubtedly, the Ninth Circuit would rule for the plaintiff and order the removal of the cross. However, even if this were to happen, one could reasonably expect that the case will be appealed (yet again), this time to the Supreme Court, which is now laden with right-wingers and religious sympathizers. The last pair of similar cases, the decisions for which were released simultaneously, split 5-4 but in opposite directions. (In McCreary County v. ACLU, the court ruled that a display of the Ten Commandments was unconstitutional, but in Van Orden v. Perry, the court ruled that a display of the Ten Commandments was consitutional.) I suspect another 5-4 decision supporting the display using Van Orden as precedence.
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Post by Savonarola »

Even California Democratic Senators Diane Feinstein and Barbara Boxer supported the land transfer. In fact, only two representatives spoke against this bill on the House floor, Susan Davis (D-CA) and Gary Ackerman (D-NY).
Mrs. DAVIS of California wrote:Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by saying I appreciate the sensitivity of my colleagues on this issue who believe this bill is about veterans. I, too, have a deep appreciation of our veterans and the sacrifices they have made for our Nation and our freedoms.

If this bill were nothing more than a veterans issue, we would have a very simple decision before us today. But, unfortunately, that is not the case. The courts have told us time and time again what this issue is about. It is about a demonstrated preference of one religion over all others. It is about a uniquely religious symbol on public land. Make no mistake about it, this bill is not about preserving a veterans memorial. It is about preserving a 29-foot cross that sits within the boundaries of a veterans memorial, a veterans memorial that is supposed to honor all veterans.

Yet towering over the American flag, and the plaques, names, and photos of honored veterans, and I can see many of their faces in the plaques today, is a 29-foot symbol of one religion, and that is why we are here today.

A district court ruling on the memorial noted, ``Even if one strains to view the cross in the context of a war memorial, its primary effect is to give the impression that only Christians are being honored.''

I can certainly understand, Mr. Speaker, the emotion that this issue has generated. Believe me, I can understand that emotion. But as today's discussion has proven, this issue has become more about a cross than about a veterans memorial. Our focus should be on the veterans, and it should be inclusive of all veterans.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a moment to share the words of one of my constituents who just recently wrote me. He says, ``My father, a Bronze Star recipient for being wounded twice during D-Day, died a few years back, and I would like to pay tribute to his service to our country by purchasing a plaque to honor him.

``Mt. Soledad is one mile from where I live, and it would be the most logical choice, given its beautiful location and proximity.

``However, my father, being a practicing Jew, would be dishonored by the cross.'' That was the way he felt he would see it. ``Shouldn't,'' he asked, ``a war memorial pay homage to all who served and defended this country?''

And he continues to write, ``It is un-American to create a memorial to veterans which is not all-inclusive.

``There are many things,'' he writes, ``which could be erected as a tribute, but a cross, a crescent moon, a statue of Buddha, or a Star of David, are completely inappropriate and illegal.

``This is all about religion, because if the monument being considered were a statue of a dove or a soldier, we would not even be having this conversation.''

Mr. Speaker, I say to you, I fully understand the sensitivity of this issue. Believe me, it would be easy to vote with the majority on this issue. But the easiest decision, or the most popular one, is not always the right one.

In the words of James Fenimore Cooper, and I quote, ``It is a besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which masses of men exhibit their tyranny.''

The beauty of our Constitution is that it protects the voice of the minority, so I ask you to join me in protecting that minority today.
Mr. ACKERMAN wrote:Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to speak on this matter, but the eloquence of the gentlewoman from California and the remarks of the distinguished gentleman from California have moved me to stand up and say a few words.

I do not know why in a pluralistic society, in a great democracy that we are, that we have become, that we continue to be, that we look to find things and issues to divide us rather than to unite us.

I am not of the Christian faith.

Christian symbols do not offend me. They stand for things that are good and decent and pure and idealistic, and I think that is wonderful. But to make them the symbol of something public is something that I do find offensive.

We talk about so often our Judeo-Christian heritage. I am not sure what that means exactly. I know it means that somebody is reaching out to try to include me and my small faith when they want to look pluralistic.

I know that my dad fought in World War II. I know that I had relatives who went to Canada to join the Royal Mounted Police because they were in World War II fighting the Nazis before the United States of America did. I know that people of all faiths of this great Nation died in that war and all other wars that we fought, and continue to die today as you read the list of people coming back, tragically killed by terrorists.

I do not know why we have to put a religious symbol on the entire monument. There is nothing wrong with the crucifix in the hands of whoever wants to hold it, even in Statuary Hall. Nobody is saying remove that cross. That is an individual sign of faith, not a collective societal sign of faith.

The gentleman from California justifies it by saying it is a symbol of our heritage. I beg to differ. It is not a collective symbol of our heritage because it is not the symbol of my heritage, though I respect it as a symbol of somebody else's heritage. And if, indeed, the only symbol up there was a statue of Buddha or a Muslim symbol or a Jewish Star of David, I would object as strenuously.

If you cannot represent all religions, then represent no religion. They did not die in a crusade. It was not a religious Korean war. Why put the symbol of Christianity or any other religion there?

Make it a monument for people who fought and died for freedom of liberty, who died for freedom of religion, who died for people's ability to express themselves in a free society. That was the intent, and I think that is something we would all be proud of, and we are proud of the veterans.
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Post by Dardedar »

Even California Democratic Senators Diane Feinstein...
DAR
She's also against flag burning.
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Post by JD Allen »

Didn't the federal courts just order a memorial for state police in Utah to be changed because it featured crosses?
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Post by Savonarola »

JD Allen wrote:Didn't the federal courts just order a memorial for state police in Utah to be changed because it featured crosses?
I was not previously aware of this. I've looked now, but I haven't been able to find any decision. Can you provide any links?
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Post by Hogeye »

DiFi (Dianne Feinstein) is a real nazi. She's against freedom of speech, and a total hypocrite wrt military spending. She is reviled in San Franciso since, when she was mayor, she enforced cannabis prohibition laws (unlike her predecessor).
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Post by JD Allen »

Savonarola wrote:
JD Allen wrote:Didn't the federal courts just order a memorial for state police in Utah to be changed because it featured crosses?
I was not previously aware of this. I've looked now, but I haven't been able to find any decision. Can you provide any links?
I'll look for some. I remember seeing it on tv - maybe on The Daily Show or The Colbert Report.
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Post by JD Allen »

Savonarola wrote:
JD Allen wrote:Didn't the federal courts just order a memorial for state police in Utah to be changed because it featured crosses?
I was not previously aware of this. I've looked now, but I haven't been able to find any decision. Can you provide any links?
Here's a link about it. I guess they haven't actually ruled yet.


http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/08/04/a ... g-crosses/
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typo&grammar

Post by wharter »

Please change "their" to "they're" or (better) "they are" in the first line of home page recent topics
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Re: typo&grammar

Post by Dardedar »

wharter wrote:Please change "their" to "they're" or (better) "they are" in the first line of home page recent topics
DAR
Got it wharter. Boy how did your note get put in this old thread?
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